The Dr. Jeff Show Ep. 40 – Alisa Childers

Episode 40: Summary & Transcript

Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Episode Summary

This episode features Dr. Jeff’s interview with Alisa Childers, a former Christian pop artist from the band Zoe Girl who experienced a crisis of faith that led her to study progressive Christianity. Childers describes how she began doubting her faith after attending a church where the pastor, during a small group study, confessed to being agnostic and was attempting to deconstruct the faith of his congregation. Through this manipulative process involving skeptical literature and gradual erosion of biblical authority, she found herself in a dark place where she intellectually doubted Christianity for the first time.

Childers’ recovery came through discovering Christian apologetics, particularly through radio programs, seminary, and apologists who could answer the claims being made against Christianity. Now a speaker, author, and podcaster, Childers has written the book Another Gospel to help others understand and respond to progressive Christianity, which she describes as a different religion altogether.

Episode Transcript

Dr. Jeff Myers (00:02):
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show. It’s a show that is available on Apple, Google, Spotify, Edifi, Liftable, wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell your friends about the show if you’re enjoying it because we want more and more people to benefit. This is the show where I interview major thought leaders from many fields of influence to show how worldview changes everything.

My guest today is a former Christian pop artist from the band, Zoe Girl. And although she grew up as a Christian, when she got into adulthood, she had some experiences that led her to begin doubting her faith. Now, Alisa Childers is a speaker, an author, a podcaster, a blogger. I’m building a strong Christian faith that answers the doubts of our world. And she’s going to dig into a lot of that, including a lot of the challenges being posed today to the church by progressive Christianity. Buckle your seatbelts, as they say, we’re going to cover a lot of ground. Thank you for joining the show. Alisa Childers, welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show.

Alisa Childers (01:07):
It’s so great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Jeff Myers (01:09):
Well, it’s fun to have you on the show. And we met at an apologetics conference in Charlotte a couple of years ago, and then recently worked together at an event that we did for Christian artists and filmmakers in Nashville, which was a lot of fun. And I’m so glad that we have a chance to be on the show today because some of the things you’re writing and thinking about now are absolutely central to the discussions that are going on about deconversion and progressive Christianity and the Christian left and all of those kinds of things. So we’ve got 30 or 40 minutes to really dig into it. So thank you for being on the show.

Alisa Childers (01:46):
Absolutely. I’m looking forward to it. It was great to be with you those couple of times and just, I love what you do. I loved the presentation you gave. And so I’m just thrilled to get to work together a little bit today.

Dr. Jeff Myers (01:56):
It’ll be fun. I’d love to let our audience get a little insight into who you are. You came up in a musical family with a father who was, I guess, one of the founders of, I guess what you would call Jesus music.

Alisa Childers (02:13):
Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (02:14):
And so then you were a well-known recording artist. You had a group called Zoe Girl and spent a lot of time touring around the country. But then there was a time in your life, Alisa, that you’ve described where you began to doubt some of the things that you knew to be true growing up. And I wonder if you could just take us into your journey a little bit.

Alisa Childers (02:39):
Yeah. So it was so unexpected for me because if you would’ve asked me as a young person, would you ever doubt your faith or would you ever doubt that Christianity is true? I would’ve looked at you like you were crazy. I never thought that I would ever experience doubt. I loved Jesus as far back as I could remember. I was so involved at youth group and at my Christian school.

And it’s not that I grew up in a bubble. I was exposed to homelessness and we did a lot of homeless ministry growing up. And so it was just like, I never thought it could happen. And how it happened was after Zoe Girl came off the road and I was married with a new baby. And my husband and I started attending this church that it said that it was just a non-denominational evangelical church.

(03:26):
And we loved it. And the pastor invited me to be a part of a smaller study group. And it was in the context of that study group that he confessed to us that he was actually an agnostic. And I found out later he was actually totally deconstructed already. So in other words, all of the beliefs that he had grown up with, he had already sort of picked apart and discarded. And he was trying to pull other people into that process of deconstruction, and he was really good at it.

Dr. Jeff Myers (03:53):
What did he do to raise those doubts? Because I have a feeling that there are a lot of people who right now may be in that situation where they’re similarly being manipulated and they can’t quite put their finger on it.

Alisa Childers (04:08):
Yeah, that’s a good question. And I think number one, he was very patient. He was very careful to plan way far ahead to bring people along slowly. And the reason I say that is because I remember even being in the class when he would sort of be more honest with this smaller group about where he was really at with things, but on Sundays he was still preaching sermons that sounded fairly biblical.

I wonder if I would listen to them now if I would still think that now that I know more and I’ve learned more. And he would talk about how he’s wanting to bring people along. And so he was very patient in that way. He took time to win people’s trust and respect and make you feel like you and I are really on the same page. And so then he would ask these skeptical questions.

(04:54):
And it was very confusing because I thought, well, is he trying to teach us how to spot deception or does he really think this? And it was very confusing. And so he had us reading literature from some of the leaders of the emergent church, Brian McLaren, people like that, and some skeptical literature about biblical reliability and textual criticism and things like that. And it was very confusing because I was kind of trusting him as my pastor and at the same time, I couldn’t figure out if he was really believing this or if he was just trying to make our faith stronger by learning to interact with it.

Dr. Jeff Myers (05:33):
What you’re describing parallels the experience of Summit graduates when they go to a university and take a class in religion, even at historically Christian universities. I don’t think it’s a heresy to say that, but there’s no place you can really go where you can assume that you can stop thinking and just believe whatever you’re told.

Alisa Childers (05:58):
Yeah. That’s really true. And in fact, I’ve even framed it that way. So many kids grow up in the church and with Christian families and really love Jesus and then they go off to college and have their faith challenged in an evolutionary biology class or they have an atheist philosophy professor or something like that. And with me, it was almost the same thing.

Only it happened in the pews of a church, which is why, Jeff, when God was reconstructing my faith, because that really threw me into a dark night of the soul, I started to really intellectually, for the first time, doubt that what I believed was actually true, which was a really painful place to be in because I knew Jesus. I’d walked with him my whole life, and yet my intellect was saying, “This is false.” And so it was very similar, but that’s why apologetics was able to help me because oddly, progressive Christians and atheists are bringing the same skeptical claims against Christianity.

(06:53):
It’s just one is still keeping the Christian label, but they’re the exact same questions, the exact same apologetic sort of issues that Frank Turek and J. Warner Wallace and all these guys are dealing with in the realm of atheism.

Dr. Jeff Myers (07:07):
Now, a lot of the people you and I know who have big platforms are what they’re calling deconstructing their faith right now, or they’re ex-evangelicals, some of them. Some of them are embracing a lot of different ideologies that are replacing a historical Christian faith. So there’s a lot to talk about there, but when people say they’re deconstructing or reconstructing, help us understand that because there’s some lingo there that may not be that familiar to people who are listening or watching.

Alisa Childers (07:43):
Right. So there’s some debate on really what the nature of deconstruction is. So I’ll give you my opinion, but some people are going to disagree with me. And some people think there’s a positive side to it. The reason I don’t think there’s a positive side to it is because in all of my experience, I’ve listened to a lot of deconstruction stories.

When people say, “I’m going through deconstruction,” what they really mean is that they’ve embraced relativism. They’ve embraced a postmodern view of truth because they’re not really interested in finding out what actually reflects reality. They’re looking for what works for them. They’re looking for a way to say, “You know what? The construct of truth I was given is just their construct.” And so it’s actually virtuous. It’s my job to tear apart that construct to deconstruct it and rebuild what I think is true and what I agree with.

(08:35):
And so often in deconstruction stories, you’ll hear it sort of compared to a sweater. You know when you’re wearing a sweater and you see a little thread that sticks out and you think, “Oh, I’m just going to pull that thread and it’ll just be fine. It’ll just come out and everything’s fine.” But that doesn’t happen. You pull it and it’s connected and you keep pulling and you keep pulling. And if you keep pulling, then after a while you don’t have a sweater anymore. You just have a deconstructed ball of yarn.

And so there are very, very, very few cases in which I think someone actually deconstructed and then reconstructed back to what would have any semblance of a historic Christian faith. And so even in my own story, looking back, I actually do think it was deconstruction, not that I had embraced post-modernism, but I had from somebody like that, had my faith deconstructed and it was very confusing, but I never lost my faith.

(09:30):
And so it’s sort of a rite of passage in progressive Christianity for you to really meaningfully call yourself a progressive Christian, you will have had to have gone through the process of deconstruction.

Dr. Jeff Myers (09:41):
I hadn’t thought about it in quite that way before. I’m really familiar with the postmodern worldview and the language there, but when somebody says they are deconstructing their faith, they could very well be saying they’ve stopped embracing a God-focused worldview and started embracing a self-focused worldview. So all of the data has to move from what happens if God is the center of reality all the way to what happens if now I’m the center of reality and how’s that going to affect me. Sorry, I just dropped my notebook.

Alisa Childers (10:14):
Oh, that’s it. Some people even use the word deconstruction and I think what they really mean, because you’ll hear people say, and again, these are things we’re all kind of thinking through right now, so I could be wrong, but I hear some people say, “Well, there’s positive deconstruction and then there’s negative deconstruction.” And I get what they mean.

But I think if we’re going to use the word deconstruction, what we’re really looking at is what I think they mean when they say it’s positive deconstruction is often I think what they mean is just, “Hey, I’m assessing the beliefs I was given. I am picking them apart. I’m going to analyze what I think is true. I’m going to hold fast to what’s true, what lines up with reality and discard it if it’s not true.” I don’t think I would call that deconstruction.That’s just more like honest doubt.

(11:00):
That’s like becoming a mature Christian that’s walking through and making sure your faith is your own, but I think there’s a difference between that and what people generally mean when they say, “I’m in deconstruction.”

Dr. Jeff Myers (11:11):
Tell us a little bit more about your story as you came through that season of doubt. What are some of the things that you did or people that you met or were mentored by who helped you gain a new sense of confidence in your faith?

Alisa Childers (11:31):
Yeah. Well, it was so many of the people in our community, the apologists. I just remember many nights I would rock, my daughter was a toddler, a little baby. She was about eight months to a toddler age when this was all going on just before I got pregnant with my son.

And I remember I would just rock her in the rocking chair and it was pitch black in the room and it just felt like a spiritual darkness too. It was indescribable. It just felt like spirituality, the supernatural was just this black hole. It was just this void. Everything, this whole wide world that I’d believed in my whole life was suddenly just shut off to me. And I would pray and it was like nothing. I couldn’t, I used to always think I could feel the presence of God. That was evidence to me.

(12:21):
When I would feel the goosebumps in the worship services, like no atheist could have taken that away from me. But I realized now that that experience is what was evidence to me to confirm that the Bible was God’s word. But when this pastor was able to knock the legs out from under the Bible, it just sent me spinning. I didn’t know where to stand.

And so I remember just crying out to God one night and I said, “God, if you’re real, if you exist and what I’ve believed is true or not true, but you’re out there, you have to send me somebody who can talk to me.” Because Jeff, at the time, I didn’t know one Christian who could answer the claims that this pastor was making. And so God in his just mercy and faithfulness led me through a series of events, two apologetics that started with a radio program.

(13:09):
And through that I found Southern Evangelical Seminary and through that I found other apologetics ministries and I couldn’t believe it. These people were answering virtually every claim that was brought up in this class. And so really my way up and out was through the discovery of the intellectual side of my faith because I was, and it’s like looking back as a kid, I didn’t have a weak faith or a shallow faith. I was a very deeply committed Christian.

I knew the Bible very well, but I just had never been taught church history. I’d really not really been taught how to properly interpret the Bible. It was more kind of just like a, you just read it and see what God says to you kind of thing. And so learning some of that stuff was like, in my book, I describe it like a kid in a candy store who just found out candy exists. That’s how it felt to find all this stuff.

Dr. Jeff Myers (14:05):
And some of the people who influenced you are people who also speak at Summit Ministries events like Frank Turek, Josh McDowell, Sean McDowell, J. Warner Wallace, and some others. Would you tell us a little bit about the class? So you’re in this class still when you’re starting to read some of these Christian apologists?

Alisa Childers (14:28):
No, by that time we were already gone. So there came a point in time, the class was supposed to last four years because he said it would be like seminary. We would learn all the stuff that people in seminary learn. And so, after about four months, they invited the spouses to come to the class. Now, my husband had been hearing me talk about this every week. I’d come home, “You won’t believe what they said this week.”

But I think when he witnessed it for himself, that’s what, I just remember we got in the car and he said, “We’re done. You’re done. We’re leaving. We are not coming back here.” And I’m so thankful for that because I don’t even want to think about how much darker it could have gotten if I would have stayed longer. So we were already out by that point, but actually it was once we were out that my sort of deconstruction kind of started to happen because when I was in the class, I would try to argue with the pastor.

(15:21):
I would try to debate him. I would go home and Google stuff and I wasn’t willing to really think. I was just, “No, you’re wrong and here’s why.” And so when I was all alone though, that’s when that all happened. And so I don’t know how long it was, maybe a few months till I discovered some of these apologists, but just so thankful.

Dr. Jeff Myers (15:41):
You’ve written a lot about this and I want people to know about your resources because I think a lot of students are, they feel trapped. They’re saying, “Great, so that was a Bible study and you could leave, but my class, if I leave, I get an F that goes on my transcript. I’m stuck here or even feel like I’m stuck at this university.” And I want to talk about the book, but I’d specifically love to have you address people who are in that situation where they’ve got to plow their way through it. What steps should they be taking?

Alisa Childers (16:17):
Man, that’s such a great point because yeah, that’s, and for me, that was what was so difficult, even just for the short time until I did leave, is that this wasn’t just like doing street evangelism like I grew up doing on Hollywood Boulevard and meeting a Wiccan or an atheist, and you can just kind of give them a gospel track and walk away. So in a certain sense, although I didn’t have to do the whole thing, I understand having to stay engaged because you can’t leave and that’s really difficult.

And so I think the number one thing I would want people to know is that even if there are things you’re learning that are rattling you, that are shaking you, rest in the knowledge that somebody out there has the same facts and data and they’ve come to a different conclusion. So withhold your judgment until you hear both sides, because like it says in Proverbs, “One side sounds really good until you hear the other side.” That’s my paraphrase. But basically just don’t freak out.

(17:21):
And you don’t have to answer everything today, but start writing down, what are the biggest questions for you? What are the things that this is bringing up in you? Like for me, I wasn’t really all that worried about the science and faith stuff they were talking about, but when it got to the Bible, like I had to get to the bottom of that.

So write down the things that are really sort of those dominoes in your life that you could see knocking your faith down and then take time, dig deep, hear the other sides, and just reserve judgment. And I think that might even give Christian kids some peace in their hearts as they walk through it. You will get out of that class at some point and you’ll have time to investigate all this stuff.

Dr. Jeff Myers (18:03):
Yeah, that’s right. That’s good. I think there are a lot of students who come through Summit Ministries and I think they probably didn’t pick up that much of what the professor was saying, but what they did pick up is when they go to their university, their philosophy professor is an atheist. They’re thinking, “Well, I know they’re an atheist and they think that’s the best view, but at Summit, J. P. Moreland was one of my instructors and he’s one of the top philosophers in the world and he doesn’t agree. So I don’t have to go along with it.”

Alisa Childers (18:32):
That’s right.

Dr. Jeff Myers (18:33):
Just to have the patience there.

Alisa Childers (18:35):
Yeah. And I think it just gives confidence. Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (18:39):
Brett Kunkle is a mutual friend of ours and he often teaches our students to doubt your doubts, which I’ve always thought is fascinating because when we hear something that causes us to doubt our faith, we assume that what’s causing us to doubt is undoubtedly true. So you have to be willing to ask those questions of the contrary ideas that you’re facing as well.

Alisa Childers (19:08):
Yeah. It’s really true because I just, with all the skepticism that was in the class, because everybody seemed to be totally willing to go with this guy, just to go along with it. And I think that that’s such a great point. It’s like, why don’t you doubt, why don’t you be skeptical of the skepticism and just kind of see both sides first. Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (19:31):
Yeah. Tell us a little about your work, studying progressive Christianity and its influence on the church, because this is a rising movement.

Alisa Childers (19:41):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s indescribably influential and people don’t realize that until they read my book or they hear me give a talk and they’re like, “Oh, I heard things like this and I had red flags, but I didn’t have language to articulate it. I didn’t know exactly what to call it or that it was sort of a cohesive movement that a bunch of Christians, well, people calling themselves Christians who are moving together with these ideas.” And it’s incredibly influential.

And so after God rebuilt my faith with apologetics over several years, it took several years, I decided after I went into apologetics, which is a whole other story, I decided, I can’t really find a lot of resources that are analyzing the movement as a whole. You can find articles with book reviews or things, but just like what this movement is about. So I took a couple years and I read all of the progressive books I could in that time and I listened to their podcasts and read their blog posts and a lot of it’s happening online.

(20:43):
So people could be missing things if you’re not on Twitter a lot or you’re not in that echo chamber. And I really discovered that there really are some core tenets, even though they’ll say, “It’s not really about what you do or what you believe, it’s about what you do. ” There really are some core tenets, the core beliefs that identify progressive Christianity and sort of everyone who considers themselves a progressive Christian would certainly deny the same things even if they don’t affirm the same thing.

So I wrote the book, Another Gospel, to document my journey. It’s really a memoir. And as you walk through my story, I interact with progressive Christianity along the way so people can gain some language to be able to identify it, and then also some apologetics arguments, some biblical arguments to be able to counter it as well.

Dr. Jeff Myers (21:30):
Tell us a little bit, I think people are familiar with the term progressive when it comes to politics, the idea that a large government can be our savior, that it’s essentially our new God. But what is progressivism when it’s applied to Christianity, or is it just sort of the political idea of progressivism trying to gain a faith element?

Alisa Childers (21:56):
Well, that’s interesting. It’s sort of like the chicken and the egg conundrum. It’s like, which came first? And I think arguments could be made on both sides, but certainly progressive Christianity. I’ve analyzed it purely from a theological standpoint, but it is incredibly political. You’re not going to find one progressive Christian who is a Republican, at least that I’ve found. They actually would think that’s evil.

So it’s very much tied in with politics, but theologically speaking, it’s just really characterized by its denials of the key and core points along the narrative of the gospel from creation, fall, redemption, restoration. But yeah, sometimes I don’t like the phrase progressive Christianity because people immediately think that you’re being political. And of course, as we know, politics and our theology, all of that’s going to be working together. But primarily, this is a theological movement that’s denying the gospel.

(22:59):
And that’s where my interest lies, because someone could be confused on politics or they could have some wrong political views and still be a Christian if they know what Christianity is, if they’ve put trust in Jesus. And then as the Holy Spirit does his work and those things can be corrected, but that’s what I try to communicate in my book. This isn’t just a group of Christians who might be swinging a little bit liberal with politics, although they do. It’s not just a group of Christians that are embracing their authenticity. This is a different religion. This gives you a different God. It describes a different Jesus.

And so that’s why my book is actually called Another Gospel, because that’s the point I’m trying to make in it is that this is not something. Because I’ll see people say, “Well, we’re brothers and sisters in Christ. We should be unified. Let’s not argue over these things.” But we have to understand this is a different religion. We have to divide over some of these beliefs. And so yeah, it’s another gospel.

Dr. Jeff Myers (24:01):
What are some of the beliefs that you mentioned that characterize this viewpoint? I want to be sure we know what we’re on the lookout for.

Alisa Childers (24:08):
Right. So I sort of hinted earlier that it’s really not so much what you affirm in progressive Christianity, because you can have progressive Christians that affirm the resurrection and others that don’t, but it’s really about what you deny. They deny the same things across the board. They deny the idea that humans have an inherent sin nature that is across the board denied in progressive Christianity. The fact that sin would separate people from God, that is denied.

The main gospel message in progressive Christianity is that you are already connected and inherently united with God. You are not separated. And if you feel like you are, it’s just your own shame. It’s your self separating because you don’t realize how beloved you are. And so that would be another denial, a major denial of the atonement. In fact, any sort of meaningfully robust understanding of substitutionary atonement is going to be referred to as cosmic child abuse.

(25:11):
And then, if you could just trace it through, there’s denials of the resurrection. They’re kind of mixed. Most would deny it. There’s still some that affirm the resurrection, but the second coming is really more of a spiritual experience that you have continually. It’s not like a future event where Jesus is actually coming back. And then of course, it’s marked by its denial of a literal hell.

So most progressive Christians are pluralists in that they believe that Jesus is one of many ways. He’s not the only way. And it’s all going to be good in the end, whether they call it universalism or a more Christocentric version that is more like universal reconciliation, that what they’re united on is that God is not going to punish anyone in an actual place called hell. So that would be kind of the flyover of the denials.

Dr. Jeff Myers (26:02):
Is the goal of this to, I mean, why would somebody want to deny those core doctrines? Are they just trying to be more positive or more fuzzy and warm? Or is it to try to attract people to something? And if so, what are they really being attracted to?

Alisa Childers (26:24):
Yeah, I’m sure that there are some who have that mindset. What I’ve encountered a lot though is just a really deeply committed passion to the idea that it’s toxic and unhealthy to tell people they’re sinners. I think for most people, they really think they’re doing good by telling people, “Hey, you got to stop seeing yourself as a sinner and start seeing yourself as a good creation that God made. You’re not broken, you’re not fallen.”

And I think that that’s really attractive to people because, I mean, I think when you think it all the way through, it’s not because I think deep down, we all know that we’re broken. You can look out, read some world history and know there’s something seriously wrong with human beings. And so I think that we know that, but on the surface, I can see why that’s appealing because I think there have been Christians who grow up in hyper legalistic environments where every little thing they did was scrutinized and judged and analyzed and to feel free from that for a minute could feel really good.

(27:26):
I feel like some people growing up in the church, I feel like I had a bounty hunter on me my whole life and now I just feel peace and I’m okay and everything’s fine. And so I get it. And also, it’s very attractive because it’s going to mirror whatever culture believes is good and true. So you have critical theory, critical race theory, critical social justice, all of these LGBTQ affirmations, all of that is going to be a major sort of positive affirmations from progressive Christians with kind of wherever culture is.

So that also feels good because then you don’t have to feel like that toxic, weird Christian who thinks it’s not okay to be gay or whatever that they would say about it. And so I think especially for young people who are being told, “Hey, if you hold to historic, biblical, sexual ethics, you’re not only wrong, but you’re actually really hurting people.” You’re causing people to be depressed. And for a young person, oh man, I can see how confusing that would be.

Dr. Jeff Myers (28:28):
It strikes me that this is really ironic that a person might respond to what they’ve seen as the self-righteousness of those in the church community in which they grew up by becoming self-righteous and calling everything that other people believe toxic or saying that it’s abusive and so forth.

Alisa Childers (28:50):
Yeah. It’s really true. In fact, we were talking a bit before we went on the air about sort of the dominant Christology in progressive Christianity, which is, and your listeners are going to need to know this phrase because we’re going to start seeing it everywhere. We already are seeing it in a lot of places and that’s the universal Christ. And that’s really the idea that it comes from Richard Rohr. It’s really just cosmic Christ ideas from the New Age, but with a bunch of Bible verses slapped on top of them, but it’s the idea.

Dr. Jeff Myers (29:19):
And church fathers.

Alisa Childers (29:20):
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. They quote church fathers out of context to support, and Chesterton and C. S. Lewis and all these people that aren’t here to defend themselves anymore. But it’s the idea that Jesus and Christ are two completely separate entities and Christ is more this universal consciousness. It’s the explanation of all reality. And Jesus, the man Jesus, sort of grabbed hold of this Christ consciousness as an example for the rest of us. We can do that too. I mean, reading his book, I think there are heavily implicit denials of Jesus deity, if not one or two explicit ones, but this is the dominant Christology.

And so you’re basically telling everybody, “Hey, you’re the Christ. You just need to realize this, that you are the Christ.” And anybody who doesn’t realize this, they’re caught up in their old toxic ways of thinking. They’ve hijacked Christianity because really it’s this universal Christ. And if anybody’s even curious how popular this is, it’s really big in the CCM music world. We’ve had two major contemporary Christian music artists take to Twitter to say, “Hey, I’m following the Universal Christ now.” So this is something that’s really sweeping up a lot of young people.

Dr. Jeff Myers (30:32):
Well, and the book is recommended by people who are high profile individuals who’ve talked a lot about Jesus. Bono is a huge fan of Richard Rohr. Kirsten Powers is another huge fan who’s on TV a lot. So there’s always the sort of a little bit of a cynical sarcastic side of me that’s saying, “Oh, this is sort of like the movie Pocahontas. Every tree has a spirit, has a name,” kind of thing. This is a comic book or fairytale version of the world. But Richard Rohr comes right out and says, “I am a pantheist. I believe that God is in everything.” It’s not like that’s a hidden viewpoint. It’s not like we’re making any accusations. He just says it flat out in the book.

Alisa Childers (31:23):
He does. It’s like he views creation as the first incarnation. So when God created the universe, he incarnated himself into matter and filled it like a hand fills a glove. And he even goes so far as to say, “God exists in all things and as all things.” I mean, it’s so heretical what he’s teaching.

Dr. Jeff Myers (31:45):
Why do you think people like Bono, who obviously has a huge profile, the biggest rock band in history, and then people like Kirsten Powers, media personality, and other artists who’ve been involved in the CCM world, why are they latching onto this? Because I couldn’t see any strong theological foundation for it. All I could see was a complete misinterpretation of every Bible verse that was listed, all the church fathers, the misquotations of C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterton, as you mentioned. But clearly there’s something compelling about it for these individuals.

Alisa Childers (32:22):
Yeah. Man, I don’t know. I’m not a huge Bono follower, but I did read his book many years ago. It was probably 15 or so plus years ago. And there seemed to be, at least in him, this willingness to sort of grab wisdom from everywhere and just what, and it’s kind of postmodern. It’s like, oh, I think that’s great. I agree with that. Rather than looking for what’s true, it’s what I agree with.

And just being willing to kind of break out of some of these boxes and be a bit of a rebel. I mean, I don’t know what his actual motivation is or what some people’s motivation is. I know that from interacting with a lot of Roar’s followers, because whenever you talk about Richard Roar, his followers will come on and defend him and all of this. And you really can sense that they have so deeply bought in.

(33:09):
And I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say on almost a cult level, not oh cult, but a cult in the sense that they have so bought into this message from this one guy who’s so influential and so congenial and so grandfatherly and it seems so loving. And of course it’s kind of like this denial of the deity of Jesus and they have so bought into it as a worldview.

And I think one of the reasons it’s so compelling is because he’s not just deconstructing Christianity. He’s actually giving you another worldview to put it in its place. Another person who did this was Glennon Doyle in her book Untamed. She deconstructs Christianity and then she kind of makes up her own worldview, but she’s got answers to the problem of what happens when you die, how do you pray, who is God, what is faith?

(33:58):
And they kind of have this talent of saying, “Well, this is wrong.” Because a lot of progressive books will just sort of deconstruct Christianity and they’ll say, “It’s wrong. We don’t believe this anymore.” But guys like Richard Rohr, people like Glen and Doyle, they’re actually reconstructing Christology. They have ideas about resurrection, about what incarnation means, all the words, right? They’re using all of those theological words and then they’re defining those words in just tremendously different ways than Christians have ever defined those words.

And so I think it makes people maybe feel safe within the context of maybe the good feelings they have toward Christianity or maybe any pastors they grew up with that they liked and they can sort of keep that, but they don’t have to take the difficult stuff with it, perhaps. That might be one reason.

Dr. Jeff Myers (34:47):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. One of the things we do at Summit Ministries is teach students to ask good questions, ask before tell, lead with questions. But the first question we’ve always taught them, and it’s more important now than ever is, what do you mean by that? If you were to ask Richard Rohr, “Do you believe in the resurrection?” He would say, “Yes.” But what he’s thinking of in his mind is not the physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead. He’s thinking of the idea that we’re all constantly being resurrected through nature or whatever, but super important to ask for definitions of those terms.

Alisa Childers (35:29):
It’s really true. And especially the more theological ones, because like you said, incarnation, totally different meaning with people like Richard Rohr and second coming of Christ. He’ll talk about that. And he’ll even go so far. I’ve read blog posts or articles that he’s got on his website and even in, it might have been in a talk he gave on YouTube where he actually kind of jokes about the fact that he still does believe in the resurrection. And he’ll even say, “I’m kind of old fashioned in that way, that I still believe in the literal.”

I think the word he uses is literal resurrection of Jesus, but he doesn’t mean Jesus’ physical body came out of the tomb. He means in this pantheistic sense of, Jesus’ body went into the ground, became part of the divine essence. And yeah, a tree grew in its place or something and that’s resurrection, but that’s not what even Christians mean when they say literal resurrection. So it’s wordplay and it’s incredibly confusing, especially for people that aren’t theologically educated, I think.

Dr. Jeff Myers (36:29):
Yeah. Help us a little bit, Alisa, as in the time we’ve got left to have the conversations about the things we’ve been discussing, because this is alarming and I can imagine there’s a parent or a grandparent and Thanksgiving comes up, Christmas time comes up, and a young adult comes home from school and says, “Yeah, grandma, I don’t believe that anymore. I’m deconstructing my faith.” Where do you even start?

Alisa Childers (37:00):
I think that if somebody, man, if somebody tells you that they’re going through deconstruction, you have a huge opportunity because a lot of times people don’t tell anyone, especially if they suspect that the person is a very conservative Christian and they’re going to freak out. So if somebody feels safe enough to come and tell you that they’re going through deconstruction, pause. Don’t react in fear, don’t react negatively.

I think it’s so important to become, don’t try to fix it in that first moment, but become a safe place for them to talk. There was somebody in my life who responded that way and it was so inviting because there was another person who responded in fear and I didn’t want to talk to that person because I knew that I had to walk through it. I knew I can’t just take your answer. I have to walk through this for myself.

(37:50):
So I didn’t want to talk to them, but the one that was like, “Okay, well, I don’t know the answer to that, but we can look at it together.” I felt safe to keep coming back with things. And so I think even if you are so sure they’re wrong, in the beginning at least, just try to establish an open dialogue where you’re not freaking out, you’re not reacting in fear, you’re not telling them, they’re wrong and just try to get them to open up and talk to you. It’s a huge opportunity if someone actually admits that to you.

Dr. Jeff Myers (38:22):
And then after you create that safe place, are there questions, maybe there may be some good questions to ask and a couple of resources. We say to save resources because you and I read a lot, but there isn’t a lot of time for a lot of people. It’s not part of their job. They don’t do this for a living, but they still want help.

Alisa Childers (38:50):
Yeah. Yeah. I think that a really good question to ask somebody who is maybe tempted by progressive Christianity, maybe they’re not all the way in, because once people are all the way in, it’s a bit more difficult. But if you sense someone just kind of confused or they’re liking these arguments, but they can’t articulate, a really good, good question would be, but you want to be a Jesus follower. And usually they’ll say, “Yeah, I’m a Jesus follower.”

And then asking them, “So what do you think about all those things Jesus said about the Bible?” Or not the Bible, use the word scripture, because of course we didn’t have the New Testament yet. And I have found that to be effective with people that are still open because they’ll say, “Oh, well, what did he say about scripture?” And then you can say, “Well, actually, I mean, he called the Old Testament scripture the word of God many, many times.

(39:41):
He told the scribes they were in error because they didn’t know the scriptures and he called it God said to you and God’s command.” And so it’s just because usually that first domino to fall with somebody and progressive Christianity is either the doctrine of hell or it’s the Bible and it’s probably going to start with the Bible.

And so if you can sort of reestablish or reorient their thinking to connect scripture with Jesus, that’s going to be effective because they want to be Jesus followers. And so if you can expose that sort of logical inconsistency of saying, “I follow Jesus, but I don’t think the Bible is God’s word because most progressive Christians don’t,” that I have found to be an effective inroad.

Dr. Jeff Myers (40:26):
That’s really good. The question of how obviously comes up at Summit a lot with our students and we’ve got a new resource. I interviewed Lee Strobel on this program and his book, Case for Heaven, I think will be an interesting one for people to look at, not only making the case for heaven, but in order to understand heaven, you need to understand the doctrine of hell.

And he responds and he treats the issues in an even-handed way, but then gives a solid explanation for what the Bible says as opposed to the philosophies that people might have because they want to dismiss what the Bible says. Right. So hopefully there’ll be some good resources like that that can be helpful as well.

Alisa Childers (41:11):
Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (41:13):
Alisa, the last question I wanted to ask is, I just always like to have people sort of speak to the rising generation. A lot of the people who watch and listen to this show are summit graduates, they’re in their 20s, they’re in their 30s, they are in the thick of this. Some of them are in this deconstruction process, some have friends who are in the middle of this. What do we do with our doubts? What would you say to a young adult who’s watching and listening right now?

Alisa Childers (41:40):
Man, I would just say don’t be afraid of your doubts. If you’re truly seeking truth, then going through some of those doubts is actually a necessary part of becoming a mature Christian. And I think the thing I would say, especially to kids who grew up in church, I think a lot of Christian kids grow up with the wrong understanding of what faith is. We think in some way it’s, if we doubt, then it means we have weak faith or we’re not real Christians or it makes us question if we really did become a Christian.

But we have to understand doubt and faith, I don’t think faith and doubt are opposites. I think the opposite of faith is unbelief. And the Bible talks about that in Romans one because we all have this knowledge of God inside our hearts to actually reject that would be a sin, but doubt can really only bubble up within the context of belief.

(42:28):
You can only doubt something if you believe it. And I think that we all do that as Christians for our whole lives. And I think part of becoming a mature Christian is not to push that down, but to say, “Hey, I have this doubt like I’ve always been told this, but it’s not making sense to me.” And take those doubts to the Lord because you have placed saving faith in Jesus. That’s trusting in Jesus, that’s active trust in Jesus, in his character.

And take that, go on that journey with Jesus. I don’t understand that this thing I read in the Bible, it makes me wonder things about the character of God. Talk to Jesus about that. Talk to the Lord about that because ultimately we trust that he’s good or he’s not. And maybe there’s something I don’t understand about the story I just read, but I trust God because I know he’s good.

(43:16):
And so our friend Bobby Conway wrote a book called Doubting Toward Faith. I think that’s such a good analogy because doubt’s directional. You can doubt, which really is more just seeking justification for the unbelief you already have, or you can have a doubt, tackle it, go through it, do some research, learn more. And it may be a long time, but I think just to, you’re not crazy if you’re doubting and it’s not abnormal, don’t push it down though. Face it. Walk through your doubts with the Lord and with other people, the other Christians.

Dr. Jeff Myers (43:51):
A special thank you to my guest for this episode today, Alisa Childers. You can visit her at alisachilders.com. Let me spell it out in case you’re listening to this in the car. A- L-I-S-A C-H-I-L-D-E-R-S, alisachilders.com. You can also follow her on Instagram and on Facebook @alisachilders.

Jesus said, “If you seek, you will find.” And Summit Ministries wants to be the kind of organization that welcomes your questions and provides resources and guidance so that you can grow in your faith and become more confident about what you believe and what difference that makes for everybody else because worldview changes everything. We’ll see you next week.

(44:36):
Hey, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Dr. Jeff Show. It’s a podcast from Summit Ministries, summit.org. Summit is a nonprofit ministry that exists to equip and support the rising generation to embrace God’s truth and champion a biblical worldview.

For nearly 60 years, Summit Ministries has been training students and those who work with students to develop, deepen and defend a biblical worldview through life-changing conferences, thoughtful church, homeschool and Christian school, curriculum books, free online resources and more. If you want to live out a biblical worldview in today’s world and you desire to instill a lifelong faith in the rising generation, visit summit.org/thedrjeffshow for more information.

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(45:40):
Be sure to share this show if you have enjoyed listening to it and leave a review, if you would, on the site where you download the show, that helps more people know about the Dr. Jeff Show, and I look forward to seeing you next week.