The Dr. Jeff Show Ep. 85 – Matt Jones

Episode 85: Summary & Transcript

Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Episode Summary

Dr. Jeff Myers interviews Dr. Matt Jones, a theologian and professor at Colorado Christian University, about the spiritual engagement of Gen Z and practical approaches to studying the Bible. He challenges the stereotype that young adults are uninterested in Scripture, citing the popularity of his difficult Bible interpretation class among students from diverse majors.

Dr. Jones explains key principles for biblical interpretation, including the importance of context, genre, and understanding that Scripture is written for us, not to us. This discussion covers the authority of the Bible, handling difficult passages, the critical role of community in spiritual formation, and a simple three-step method (observation, interpretation, application) for personal study.

Episode Transcript

Dr. Jeff Myers (00:02):
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show podcast available on Apple, Google, Spotify, Edifi, Liftable, wherever you get your podcast. If you like the show, please take a moment to review it on your favorite platform that helps other people find out about what we’re up to, which is showing how our worldview changes everything.

Today’s guest is Dr. Matt Jones. He is a theologian, a New Testament scholar, a professor at Colorado Christian University, and both he and his wife have ministered to students for years. And I’m going to ask him, is it really true that Gen Z doesn’t have any interest in spiritual things, doesn’t have any interest in the Bible. And how could we study the Bible? And what would happen if you meet somebody who says, I kind of would like to study the Bible? Where would you help them start?

Dr. Jones and I are going to have all those questions, including a surprise role play where I’m actually just going to play that out. We just met in a coffee shop, and see what he says. I think you’re going to enjoy the show. Welcome to this episode. Dr. Matt Jones, welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show podcast.

Dr. Matt Jones (01:08):
Hello. Thank you for having me. It’s a real privilege to be here today.

Dr. Jeff Myers (01:12):
Now we’ve known one another for a long time. We were colleagues way back in the day in East Tennessee at Bryan College.

Dr. Matt Jones (01:19):
Bryan College, that’s right.

Dr. Jeff Myers (01:20):
And you were working on a master’s degree at Dallas Seminary. You went from there, got a doctorate, and now you are an associate professor at Colorado Christian University.

Dr. Matt Jones (01:29):
That’s right. Been there for 16 years, so love it.

Dr. Jeff Myers (01:32):
And I wish people, I’m looking at the camera right now. For those of you who are listening, I just want to draw the audience in. Did you ever have that professor who everybody loved? Matt is that guy at Colorado Christian University. And I know this because for six years I was on the board and I would go up there and every board meeting I’d go over to the dining hall and just have meals with students and kind of hang out.

(02:04):
The students always want to be around you, treat them with dignity and respect and love, and then you also grade their papers and teach their lectures and do all of those things.

So I’ve got so many questions for you just about young adults today. I’m imagining that some people who are listening right now, or maybe they’ve come to a Summit Ministries program, maybe they’re in college now, maybe in their twenties, and they’re kind of thinking through what’s the next step in life, or maybe parents or even grandparents who are wondering right now, is this really true that this rising generation has no interest in spiritual things and no interest in the Bible, they’re just nones, N-O-N-E-S, and they don’t really care?

Dr. Matt Jones (02:57):
Well, that has not been my observation or experience. It’s funny, one of the classes that I teach is Interpreting the Bible and it is probably the second toughest class at CCU.

Dr. Jeff Myers (03:09):
Okay, so what’s tough about this class, because help us understand if we haven’t had that class before.

Dr. Matt Jones (03:13):
So interpreting the Bible is really challenging students to learn the skills that are associated with interpretation to help students not only read scripture, but more importantly, in context. Not only what’s before and after the passage and how it fits in the book itself, but then also in the canon, the Bible, and try to discern what it meant during that time period rather than, as you’ve been pointing out in Summit, rather than asking, well, what’s the Bible saying to me?

Dr. Jeff Myers (03:43):
Yeah, what does it mean to me?

Dr. Matt Jones (03:44):
Yeah, what does it mean to me? Asking the question, okay, what did it mean in that time period? What were the authors through the inspirational Holy Spirit trying to communicate? And that takes some work, that takes some discernment, that takes some time, and we really do have some high not only expectations of interpreting well, to discern what it meant, but also writing it well. Because one of our priorities at Colorado Christian is not only to learn to think critically, but also to write well, because people need to be able to do that.

And so what’s interesting to me is usually whenever I teach interpreting more than half, if not three quarters of the folks that are taking it are taking it as an elective. They are choosing, it’s not part of their program. They are choosing. I want to learn. Now, obviously that’s not everybody, right?

(04:33):
But I’ve been impressed with the number of students. I’ve been teaching that class about 8 to 10 years now, and I regularly have a good number of students who are taking it. It’s not required for their minor, for their major. They just want to learn to interpret the Bible.

Dr. Jeff Myers (04:50):
So they might be studying music or nursing or something in the sciences, and then they want to take this class, which makes sense that theology students would take it.

Dr. Matt Jones (05:04):
Now, theology have to take it, right?

Dr. Jeff Myers (05:05):
Ministry students would have to take it. You could even imagine that English literature students would have to take it.

Dr. Matt Jones (05:10):
Which is interesting, because my English students that take it, they’re usually the ones that interpret the Bible the best because a lot of the skills of writing and reading that you learn in English major are transferable to interpreting the Bible well. So yeah, business majors will take it. I mean, other than, well, I really can’t think of, I very rarely have a music person because usually their degree programs are a little bit more full because of the number of classes.

Dr. Jeff Myers (05:38):
But practice generally just like being a student athlete.

Dr. Matt Jones (05:40):
Just like being a student athlete. And I’ll have student athletes that take it for fun also. And so your question in terms of the nuns, that has not been my overall experience. Now we do have some nuns even that go to a Christian university, but have quite a few students that take on one of the toughest classes at Colorado Christian because they just want to learn, Hey, how can I shift from getting to know about God, to getting to know the God of the universe through what he’s revealed in his work? And it’s pretty great.

Dr. Jeff Myers (06:14):
I love it. I would like to take the class. I don’t want to be graded anymore though. I’m nervous about getting grades. But Matt, this is so interesting. I’m just, when students finish that class and they reflect back on what happened, what are they saying to you?

Dr. Matt Jones (06:39):
That’s a good question. What’s funny, you don’t hear a ton from students after they graduate, but every once in a while you’ll hear a student, you’ll say, Jones, I left CCU and I’ll get an email back and they will communicate. I’ve been taking some of those principles and I’m still learning about not only God’s word, but more importantly getting to know God. As a result, I’m able to lead my small group in this or I’m able to teach a Sunday school class, or I’m able to just spend time on my own.

And so those are the ones, yeah, I get evaluations at the end and say, this is the best class I’ve taken. I have confidence now that I can read scripture in context and get a really good idea of what these authors meant. But for students to do that extra step even after they’ve graduated and they say, this has stuck with me and I’m actually applying it.

And I actually make a commitment at the end of all of my interpreting of the Bible classes, I say, this is the one class where I promise you that as long as you can contact me and as long as I’m at CCU and you can contact me, I’ll answer any question about the Bible. Because you all represent a very select group of people. And I want to say, I’m here for you to wrestle with these things, even after you’ve graduated. And every once in a while still get emails about that, they’ll reach out.

Dr. Jeff Myers (08:04):
What are some of the barriers for students that they have to overcome or I guess I kind of wanted to ask what questions are they asking? But they’re probably asking a lot of questions because they feel like, I really want to believe that the Bible is God’s word. But man, there’s some crazy stuff in there and I don’t see how it all fits together. And I know that’s what you’re focusing on in the class, but I’m sure they start with some question saying, man, this class can answer this question that’ll really be worth my while.

Dr. Matt Jones (08:37):
Yeah. The nice thing is that in Old Testament and New Testament, all the students are required to take that first.

Dr. Jeff Myers (08:45):
So they learn the history and they learn, what is it, the books of the Bible?

Dr. Matt Jones (08:50):
They’re major ideas and kind of, okay, here are some basic approaches to scripture. And what we do in interpreting is we really put that on steroids and we focus on, like I said, context, we focus on genre, which is extremely important. We need to read the text in the genre with which it’s written. If you don’t, that creates a lot of issues. And so whenever we’re working through, I mean big questions about Genesis one come up quite often, even in interpreting, even after they’ve gone through Old Testament.

Another one, which I think Summit, and I’m not saying Summit doesn’t do a good job with Genesis one, but one of the things that I’ve noticed, this is our second time working through with Summit in terms of the similarities and differences in the gospel, and Summit really has done a great job with the people they bring in on that. That’s a huge question that we get in terms of saying, okay, we’re saying that scripture is reliable, it’s trustworthy, and yet I need to deal with the differences here. And so we engage that.

We teach them skills to discern, how do we know what the genre is here in the passage because we don’t want to read poetry like a parable, or we don’t want to read a poetry like a genealogy. We need to discern those differences that radically can impact if we’re doing it well, how we’re interpreting. And then of course, foundational to interpreting is application.

Dr. Jeff Myers (10:17):
Yeah, so I love all of this. So we’ve got in the Bible, 66 books written over the course of 1500 years by 40 authors who were from all walks of life. And then you’ve got all these different genres. You have poetry, you have wisdom literature, you have genealogies, as you mentioned, you have Chronicles history, the gospels, the epistles, all of these different things all coming together to tell one story.

And as I talk about that at Summit Ministries, Matt, and I’m so grateful for your being here and investing in the students. And the students at Summit love you. You get to know them personally, their names, you interact with them, take their questions seriously.

One thing I’ve noticed, and I’m curious if your observation is similar, a lot of students, they have no trouble believing that there’s a God. Sure there’s a God. They don’t even have trouble believing that the Bible is true. Sure, it’s accurate, transmitted accurately. Where it’s difficult for a lot of students is why should the Bible have authority in my life for this rising generation? All their lives they’ve been taught you don’t seek the truth, you just speak your truth.

(11:43):
So they can say, oh, I think that’s true for you. If you like it, great. But I don’t see why it should have authority in my life. Do you see that at all?

Dr. Matt Jones (11:54):
Yeah. I mean there’s a struggle there because I agree first of all that yeah, they’re really wrestling with should scripture be authoritative? And even if it is, how do I live it out in our culture in the 21st century?

(12:16):
And it is a challenge. And what we need to do, and what I think watching Summit is they say, okay, here’s really, if we take this authoritative passage seriously and as authoritative, here’s how it brings life, not only to you, but to the community around you. And if we can continue to make those connections with and for students to say, look, this is why it’s true across all time, across all cultures, or at least some parts of it. I mean, we don’t greet each other with a holy kiss anymore. Thank goodness, at least in American culture, if I did that with students walking into class, I wouldn’t be teaching very long after that.

So we have to be discerning in terms of what’s cultural and what’s moral across all time. And I think that’s another challenge for the students, is discerning what things are across all cultures. But if we can see that and they can see the value in that, that helps them recognize, okay, this should be authoritative over my life.

But we do have to admit, I think that there are passages that we really, instead of it being literal, greet each other with holy kiss, there is a principle to where, okay, we don’t do that anymore. But boy, and I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but whenever students are coming in, typically my wife and her eye at the door and we’re doing pounds, we’re saying, hey, Jeff. We’re saying, hey Isabelle, and just when we can connect, we’re trying to do that.

(13:50):
And so that’s what I see as a challenge also is, yeah, I’m struggling with the authoritative piece, but what pieces are actually authoritative? And that’s actually come up several times in our time at Summit.

Dr. Jeff Myers (14:04):
Well, it’s a huge question. If you decide to read through the Bible in a year, say read three chapters a day within the first month, you’re going to be in Exodus, and within the first five or six weeks you’re going to be in Leviticus, right? So how does thou shalt not boil a baby goat in its mother’s milk? Apply to my life.

And I mean obviously there are a lot of passages we could ask that, but the issue of authority that we’re talking about doesn’t rest on the cultural, particular cultural practices related to skin diseases and so forth. When you talk about those difficult passages like that with your students, how do you help them authentically identify the core principles that are there? I know myself well enough to know if I want there to be an underlying principle, I could probably figure out how to communicate it and make a persuasive case.

Dr. Matt Jones (15:05):
Or even make a persuasive case to ignore it if it should be a principle that we, because we like to justify a lot of action.

Dr. Jeff Myers (15:15):
You got it, you got it. I don’t know if anybody else is watching or listening who wrestles with this, but I’m glad we get to talk about it.

Dr. Matt Jones (15:21):
So three things that I try to help students think about whenever it comes to this initially, and then we have to wrestle with some other things. Our first of all, context, which we’ve talked about. We got to say, okay, scripture is written into context.

Second of all, we got to discern the genre because sometimes we treat Proverbs as promises and we’ve got to be discerning in terms of Proverbs are overarching principles that are generally true, but yet we can’t take ’em as promises, so we’ve got to learn the genre. And third, we have to step back in my opinion and say, scripture was not written to us, but it was written for us.

(16:08):
And so we are not first century Jews trying to discern whether or not Jesus is a Messiah. None of us are first century Ephesians that people are writing, that Paul is writing to. So we can try to put ourselves in their context the best we can to understand, okay, here’s what they’re wrestling with and why. Then after we have those three principles down, we’re looking at the details, we’re looking at the context, we’re looking at the genre. Then I actually like to pull in the Wesleyan quadrilateral and say, okay, with the Wesleyan quadrilateral, we’re looking at rest. We are utilizing reason because God has called us to utilize the minds to love God with our minds.

Second of all, in that rest, R-E-S-T, is experience. I do not like to rely too heavily on experience, but there is value there because in the gospel of John, Thomas says, hey, I won’t believe until I see the holes in his hands and the spirit in his side. And Jesus allows for that. And then he responds, my Lord, my God. Then scripture is the S. And then T is tradition. I think one of the challenges is, and I’ve noticed a quasi return to tradition among this generation.

(17:27):
They are interested in more of the liturgy, they’re more interested in the history and see how our family has connected over time. Now, I think foundationally scripture is the key, but God allows us to utilize region, experience and tradition to help us go through this process of discerning, alright, here’s things we know and concern in light of those principles of engaging scripture, we know thou shalt not murder. That’s pretty good. Let’s avoid that one. Thou shalt not steal, et cetera.

But then there’s others. I’ll go back to the holy kiss. I say to students, if there’s a command in the Bible, in the imperative there in the Greek, if there’s a command in the Bible five times, do you think we should obey it? I said, every one of them say, oh yeah, we should obey that one. And then I take them to the five times I didn’t obey God’s word today. How do we navigate that? And so those are principles. I really like Wesley’s Quadrilateral reason, experience, scripture, tradition, scripture is key, right rest, but then also context, genre and realizing scripture is not written to us, but it is written for us.

(18:42):
So I think that’s pretty good, foundational. And there are some questions that usually require some engagement with the scholarly community, and there’s others that students are able to discern on their own. One of the reasons I like, in teaching interpreting, is I make it difficult to where they need to rely on one another.

And I encourage them to study in the library together and say, hey, what do you think of the key idea that I’m getting out of this? Because I wanted to realize, yes, you can get things out of scripture on your own through the power of the Holy Spirit and the discernment, but there are times where community is extremely valuable in having that discussion.

Dr. Jeff Myers (19:25):
Yeah, that’s so good. I am thinking of a lot of the commands to grow spiritually in the epistles and thinking of the epistles as letters to groups of people. They wouldn’t have made, graphed them or photocopied them and handed them out or even sent them mass emails to everybody. They’re reading the letter aloud. So the commands to grow spiritually would come in the context of all of us together growing spiritually. So I can see the power of community in that. I never thought about that quite that way.

Dr. Matt Jones (20:02):
And what is really interesting, if you look in Ephesians six where it talks about putting on the full armor of God, how many of our translations have done it? It looks like it’s an individual responsibility, but whenever you look at what’s going on there, it’s actually you all language. You all are supposed to be doing that together. And remember with the Romans, there’s some pictures of first century Roman military and they’re linking their shields together.

And I put that image up on my PowerPoint and I say, folks, whenever you put the linked up armor together and you put the shields together, when Paul and Ephesians talks about the fiery arrows, if it’s just one person that’s getting through, but whenever it’s all linked together, it’s really hard for those flaming arrows.

And so what’s incredible about Ephesians 6 when he’s bringing up this Roman military language, it is designed for the church to be working together. That just came across in personal study a few years ago. Wait a minute, you and I need to be linking up the community within which God’s put me. We need to be linking up and we need to be faithful. And as we’re working together and putting on those pieces, that’s the design.

(21:27):
And one of the things I’ve really noticed about Summit is the students get here, and I was actually talking to a student about this today, their parents’ sole purpose in sending them was they knew he had a good foundation. They knew that he didn’t really struggle with a lot of the issues we talk about, but he’d been so separated from community that he had gotten to the point where he thought he could do this on his own.

Dr. Jeff Myers (21:54):
Wow. Right?

Dr. Matt Jones (21:55):
And so he and I were talking about this today. He’s been here a weekend. He said a light went on, and I’m paraphrasing, but a light went on that I need something like this in terms of being around brothers and sisters in Christ, because I think if I were to put words in his mouth at this point, he realized he can’t do it alone.

And one of the things that Summit has done, a good job that I’ve really noticed is it gives students the opportunity to experience what putting on the full armor of God in a community really means. And it’s really incredible what life comes out of that, if we’re willing to submit ourselves, acknowledge our need, and do this together.

Dr. Jeff Myers (22:41):
Yeah. Well, you can see how we’re in Colorado recording and you live here now, and I live here so you can observe this. There are a lot of people who come to Colorado for the summer, come out, rent a place, or maybe they have a house here or something. But there are a lot of people, 25% of them are from Texas. And so we have a lot of guests coming to our community in the summertime, and I’ve noticed quite a few of them will just instantly insert themselves into Bible studies or they’ll start up a Bible study, even though they’re only going to be here for nine weeks or what have you. I can imagine a student going to college wanting to do that same thing.

Now, at a place like CCU, there are regular opportunities for Bible studies, but if you’re a student at a secular university and you move into your residence hall and you think, I don’t think there are any other believers here, and how would you even get started? And what would you recommend they start with, would they study a book of the Bible? What if they don’t really know a lot about the meta narrative arc of scripture and things like that? Just help that student a little bit because what they do in the first six or so weeks at college will sort of set the trajectory for what happens the rest of the year.

Dr. Matt Jones (24:08):
Yeah. Well, can I speak to that in two different ways?

Dr. Jeff Myers (24:11):
Yeah.

Dr. Matt Jones (24:11):
So first of all, my wife was not a believer and she went to the University of Delaware, and I may tear up on this, but she had got connected with other ladies who were, or girls, women who were believers, and they started inviting her to an varsity and she came to know Christ as a result of that. So one level is I would encourage wherever you end up going to school.

And that’s one of the things I’ve been pointing out is we have several students at Summit that are going to public universities, and it’s been kind of fun. I’ve been able to connect them to other students who are going. So there’s two students that I think God’s sovereignly put together and didn’t know each other coming, and they’re both going to the University of Wisconsin and they’re sitting right beside one. And I said, what an incredible connection.

(25:06):
So being available, being submissive, being aware of what the Lord brings into your life, and then being intentional when you’re at the public university, Hey, there’s InterVarsity, there’s crew, there are people that are there to make connections with, to build and deepen your faith. You’re not designed to do the faith by yourself. I mean get connected at a church.

The other thing too, individually is I have a different approach when it comes to, you were talking about reading three chapters a day. I have a little bit of a different approach that I was taught when I was 15 years old in studying scripture. And this is how my youth pastor helped me to discern the difference between getting to know about God and getting to know the God of the universe. And while I’ll read a Psalm and a Proverb almost every day, I’ll focus in and narrow in on a section of scripture.

Now, there’s some downside to that because you lose some of the flow, but what I’ll do is I will have, because your Bible, most Bibles are cut into sections. I’ll say, okay, I’ll pray. I’ll read 10 to 15 verses whatever the section allows, and then I’ll just ask questions. Who, what, when, where, why, how?

(26:22):
Do observations. Okay, what’s this passage about? And then, so that’s observation. Then second, I’ll do interpretation. I’ll just write down one or two sentences, say, here’s what I think that meant. And then I’ll pray. I’ll say, okay, Lord, in light of what that meant, in light of those observations, how does this apply to the life you’ve given me? It takes about 15, 20 minutes to where my relationship with God remains vital. I’ve been doing this, so 15 years old, I’m 48, so over 33 years, and I still do it and I’m still getting things out of scripture.

And so be in community, but also discern a way, and I don’t think there is the way to spend time in scripture, but discern a way to spend time in scripture that helps you develop and build that relationship with God. And I really like observation, interpretation, application, and then hopefully I say, Lord, I will intentionally pursue applying that, but also bring some people into my life that gives me the opportunity to do so.

Dr. Jeff Myers (27:24):
Okay.

Dr. Matt Jones (27:25):
Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (27:25):
Yeah. Observation, interpretation, and then…

Dr. Matt Jones (27:28):
Application.

Dr. Jeff Myers (27:29):
Application.

Dr. Matt Jones (27:30):
And actually a really good book on that is Howard Hendricks’ Living by the Book.

Dr. Jeff Myers (27:35):
Howard Hendricks. Miss that guy.

Dr. Matt Jones (27:38):
Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (27:39):
Yeah. One of the most phenomenal public theologians, I guess, or speakers. I’m not sure exactly what you’d call him. Well, he knew how to bring scripture to life.

Dr. Matt Jones (27:48):
Yeah, he really did.

Dr. Jeff Myers (27:48):
It’s powerful. So let’s just role play a conversation here for a minute. This actually happened to me. I was at the gym and a lady who knew I was president of Summit Ministries just walked up to me and said, I need more God in my life was literally the conversation opener. I need more God in my life.

(28:13):
So I don’t even remember exactly what I said to her, but if we can role play this a little bit. So let’s say we’re together someplace. Hey Matt, what do you do? What’s your job?

Dr. Matt Jones (28:26):
I’m a professor at a Christian university.

Dr. Jeff Myers (28:29):
You’re a professor at a Christian university. So you like the Bible a lot?

Dr. Matt Jones (28:33):
I do. I like the students I get to interact with about the Bible also.

Dr. Jeff Myers (28:37):
Yeah. Hey, I’ve got a lot of questions about the Bible. I mean, I know a lot of people say every educated person knows the Bible and all that, but whenever I’ve tried to look at it, I can’t make heads or tails of it. Is that something that you’ve talked about you could help me with?

Dr. Matt Jones (28:57):
Yeah, I would love to sit down and have that conversation about that. Can you tell what would you like to get out of the Bible? What would be of interest to you?

Dr. Jeff Myers (29:11):
Well, I guess I need inspiration like anybody else, I suppose. And I’ve always heard that the Bible inspires a lot of people, but I’ve also kind of been freaked out by it too, because it’s so old, talks about these old cultures that I can’t relate to at all, and then they do things in the Bible, they talk about how to treat your slaves or women should not do this or that, all of those kinds of things. And I think, is it really inspirational or is it just sort of archaic?

Dr. Matt Jones (29:49):
Yeah. Well, first of all, that’s a really good question and I want to be aware of not being too repetitive, but why do those, first of all, those things concern you? Because I’d really like to know why those things concern you, and I think I know where you’re going, but it’s usually better to hear why that is so that we can address what the issue is that’s going on in your heart, that because is this preventing you from wanting to engage in God’s word or do you want to engage and it just is really confusing for you?

Dr. Jeff Myers (30:24):
Well, I sort of want to engage, but if I tell my friends I’m picking up the Bible and reading it, I know exactly what they’re going to say. Are you becoming one of those people? Those people?

Dr. Matt Jones (30:36):
Yeah. Okay, good. Well, yeah, there you go. There’s the ums there. I’m trying to avoid those. I would love to have that conversation. And whenever it comes to scripture, we do need to step back and we have to recognize, okay, yeah, this is written in a different culture and it is written in a different context, and they were dealing with some very challenging issues of the day.

(31:06):
But whenever you look at scripture as a whole, and if we want to just focus on women just a second, we need to step back and realize, yeah, there are some challenging passages, but if you’re reading them in the time period, in the context with which they’re written, scripture was ahead of the game in terms of looking out for women and taking care of women.

In fact, at least at this point, I was working with a colleague that has done quite a bit of study on women in literature in the Ancient Near East. And we have to step back and realize that at this point in looking at other Ancient Near East documents, the only one that includes the creation of woman is the Bible.

Dr. Jeff Myers (31:48):
Oh, I didn’t know that.

Dr. Matt Jones (31:52):
And actually, it gives women a very high value early on in those scriptures. And so what I’d like to do, I’d like to sit down and show you that because that’s a really big misconception that scripture is mean or demeaning towards women. Actually, when you look at it in context and in light of what’s going on in the Ancient Near East, it’s pretty incredible.

Now, there are some challenging passages, I have to admit that. But as you’re looking at scripture as a whole and the value that God places on women, I think you’d actually be pretty excited about what he was communicating or is communicating and bringing it now into the 21st century.

Dr. Jeff Myers (32:39):
So if I can understand a little more of their culture, even then I can understand how their experiences as humans do relate to my experience.

Dr. Matt Jones (32:48):
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Dr. Jeff Myers (32:50):
So we’ve been role playing just a little bit here.

Dr. Matt Jones (32:53):
You caught me off guard with that. I’m glad. I mean.

Dr. Jeff Myers (32:56):
Well, I didn’t want to, which is great. No, but I kind of wanted to catch you in that situation. So if we just met up in a coffee shop, I sense that people really do want to know more and they would be interested. I’ve had a few people say, well, I think I might like to study the Bible, or I feel like I should, but I don’t know what to do or where to go, and I got all of these questions about it.

Dr. Matt Jones (33:24):
And we need to be able to direct them to not only scripture, but also people like you, myself, a lot of speakers, because there are reasonable answers to a lot of these challenges. There really are. There are some that I still struggle with.

I’ve been teaching it for, how many, every years, and I have to wrestle, and there are reasonable responses to some of those challenges, but still closing that gap sometimes because we’re not in that time period, we’re in the 21st century. There are some questions that scripture says, okay, great question. But that doesn’t seem to be the intent or focus of what God’s trying to deal with at that time.

(34:09):
And women, we read it from a 21st century lens. But like I said, there’s some pretty incredible things going on behalf of and for design, for protection, even though they may not see it on the outside looking in, I had a student that did a particular topic that was really concerning to her from a Leviticus on women and how the scripture was dealing with a particular issue.

And so she dug deep and she said this was actually designed to protect them. This was actually designed for their good, and she came away with a greater confidence in scripture because she did. She was in my interpreting class. She did an exegetical on the vix. It’s like, wait a minute, this was really good. Even though from that initial reading, it created some concern for me, which is why she chose the passage in the first place.

Dr. Jeff Myers (35:04):
Well, you see so much of the Levitical law relates to protecting the vulnerable. So it’d be protecting women and children, protecting poor people, protecting those who don’t have a husband or a father. And if you read it from that perspective, you realize there is so much in here that is actually the basis of what we consider to be the good parts of our law today.

Dr. Matt Jones (35:28):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (35:33):
If you’re watching or listening right now thinking, okay, Jones and Myers did not answer my question, go to summit.org and look at the resource library. I think if you just go to summit.org, I think it just says resources at the top. You click on that and you can type in your topic, what are you interested in, what are you concerned about? And there are articles, even movie reviews. There are videos of Summit Ministries instructors taking a few minutes to answer a key question here or there. Maybe that would be part of the learning process. Don’t let that substitute for being in scripture.

Dr. Matt Jones (36:11):
Right? Absolutely.

Dr. Jeff Myers (36:12):
But as questions come up, there are good resources out there.

Dr. Matt Jones (36:16):
There are.

Dr. Jeff Myers (36:16):
That you can, I don’t know, I think if you just Google something, you could end up with a lot of weird stuff. But at summit.org, I trust what’s there at the very least. And then the people who are commenting there, then you can turn and look up their videos and things like that. Yeah. So tell us, if you were to talk to somebody and they say, if I wanted to read the Bible, where should I start and why?

Dr. Matt Jones (36:46):
Yeah, that’s a great question. I typically direct students. I try to get a gauge for where they’re at spiritually, but typically I recommend the gospel of John or James, because the Gospel of John is really designed. It ends with or near the end, it says, I’ve written these things that you may believe that Jesus is Christ the son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name. And so there, he’s made this purpose and he said, that’s great.

I mean, it’s going to make clear the gospel. It’s going to make clear that Jesus, it’s believable, that Jesus is worthy of trust, that he is the Son of God, they is a messiah. And that as a result, what it teaches is here’s how you can experience life on this side of eternity. A lot of times we focus on eternity with God, and it seems in the gospel of John that is part of the good news. But the other part of good news is, hey, you can experience life here.

(37:49):
And it is really cool. So if you want to really understand Jesus and what he’s doing and some of his miracles and why those miracles are there, John is great for that. And it’s really a relatively easy gospel to read. James is another one that’s really good because it’s real practical and it really does deal with a lot of the challenges of our day, in my opinion, temptation, the importance of praying for wisdom. James is making very clear that look, showing partiality is not good. How to deal with the will of God. I mean, it’s really a practical book.

And the other one I kind of like is Philippians, because it’s short and it gives some real practical instructions for here’s some things to think about and pursue and apply to again, experience the life that God has for you. So I usually direct ’em to those three, John, because it focuses on Jesus, Philippians and James, because they’re rather short. And I say, look, try the observation, interpretation, and application. I do this every semester with my New Testament class. I say, you put this into practice for 30 days, and I guarantee you’ll get something out of God’s word.

Dr. Jeff Myers (39:16):
Wow. You’ve got to have a little time. You’ve got to give yourself a little time. Like establishing a new habit. If you’re going to start running, you can’t just run once. You’ve got to.

Dr. Matt Jones (39:24):
That’s right. And so I say, do it for 30 days. I guarantee you’ll get something out of it. And I have yet for a student to take me up on that guarantee and come back and say, I didn’t learn a single thing. And it’s been great. And I’ve been teaching a New Testament, I think for 13 years at CCU say, I guarantee you. And now not all the students do it. They have their own way, et cetera. But I’ve yet to have them come back and say, I didn’t learn a single thing. And if they do, then that’s another awesome discussion we get to have. But then they also start to develop the confidence I can get something out of God’s word, and it’s so exciting, so great.

Dr. Jeff Myers (40:04):
I love it. I love it. Yeah. I know there are a lot of different ways that people read scripture. I like to just go through, I’m applauding guy, I just applaud from one thing to the next. I run the same way. You might not even call it running. I stay on my feet though, and I can do it for miles and miles and miles. I like to read straight through scripture every year because I like to see the whole arc of scripture, genesis to Revelation.

And there are a few places that just like right now, this time of the year, I’m in Isaiah, which is one of my favorite books, and you read what Isaiah’s saying to the people of his time, and then all of a sudden you realize what I am reading is about the Messiah. So that’s exciting. But to get to Isaiah, you’ve got to.

Dr. Matt Jones (40:54):
There’s quite a bit of other things to get through.

Dr. Jeff Myers (40:56):
There’s two thirds of the year before you even get to that book, and it’s still in the Old Testament. There’s so much there. But are there any good resources on the books of the Bible? I mean, I know a lot of people probably could get a study bible that says, here’s why this book was written. Here’s who wrote it, here’s when they lived, and all of that kind of thing. But are there any resources that you say, hey, if you’re just going to check in on who Isaiah was and what his mission was, is it resources you turn to?

Dr. Matt Jones (41:27):
Well, I actually, why is my mind going blank? First one that comes to mind is What’s In the Bible. It was downstairs in the library downstairs. I honestly forget who the author is.

Dr. Jeff Myers (41:39):
Okay. What’s In the Bible?

Dr. Matt Jones (41:39):
Yeah, What’s In the Bible? That’s a good one. It gives great intros and summaries that are readable and accessible. Elmer Towns has a New Testament survey text that we recommend for our freshmen coming in. And in all honesty, even though I work at Christian University, we have a great spectrum.

Dr. Jeff Myers (42:02):
Sure.

Dr. Matt Jones (42:03):
We have students who have not even opened a Bible before to students who have been living in breathing it for their 18 years of life.

Dr. Jeff Myers (42:11):
I mean, some are there to grow in their spiritual life. Some are there because it says Christian, hopefully they’re going to be nicer to me than the university down the road.

Dr. Matt Jones (42:20):
And so those New Testament surveys, I think they do a good job. The New Testament survey, Old Testament survey, I think that one’s by Gutierrez, they’re really good, solid. I don’t want to make it too basic, but they provide foundational principles for you to help understand some history of the Bible, the books of the Bible, who they’re written to, why they’re written, and they give a good summary there.

Dr. Jeff Myers (42:45):
Well, basic is good in this situation because when you’re dealing with 66 books written over the course of 1500 years, it’s real easy to get lost in the details. Yeah, man, this has been so practical and helpful, and thanks for playing along in the role play with me, because I always wonder, because I get in these conversations all the time at a coffee shop or wherever else, I was just in one yesterday just because after I recovered from cancer, I ran a half marathon.

(43:19):
A bunch of students and a couple of my kids and my sister all ran it with me, and I had a t-shirt that says, Jesus wins on the front. Well, that starts a lot of conversations and usually starts like this, hey, man, like your shirt.

Dr. Matt Jones (43:34):
Really?

Dr. Jeff Myers (43:35):
Yeah. Cool. Yeah. And just, I only, I wear it because I like the shirt, but I think, if people feel that, oh, if he’s going to wear that, I could probably talk to him. And if they don’t want to talk, they don’t have to talk. But it does seem like we’re in these situations a lot, and I never want anybody who’s watching or listening to our show to feel like, I’m afraid, I’m afraid to have this conversation. Because if they ask me questions like that, I wouldn’t know what to say and I would feel silly, and then I would feel like I somehow let the Lord down.

Dr. Matt Jones (44:13):
Yeah. Well, I would say two things about that. First of all, I have been impressed with the Summit students because they and the culture that you all have created to where students, I think that they feel the freedom to ask questions. I’ve been surprised by some of the questions. The second piece is that Jesus, in his humanity, whenever he was asked, Hey, when are you coming back? Or When are all these things going to happen? When he is talking about the future? He says, only the Father knows. I don’t know.

So I tell students, you know what? If you say, I don’t know, you’re being like Jesus, and it’s okay, but get the information from the person because there are responses. Sometimes there’s not complete answers because we’re finite people trying to understand an infinite deity, but you’re being like Jesus. If you say, I don’t know sometimes. And that is okay. I find great freedom in that. B

ut a lot of times I’ll go to my colleagues, like this happened. The second night I was here, a student was asking me about a passage that I had not looked at. It was in the Old Testament. My area of emphasis is New. I emailed one of my colleagues, Dr. Seth Rodriguez, excellent scholar in Old Testament. He emailed me back and I gave the response to the student. He goes, there you go. So there are answers out there.

Dr. Jeff Myers (45:34):
Yeah, that’s so good.

Dr. Matt Jones (45:36):
Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (45:36):
Yeah.

Dr. Matt Jones (45:37):
That’s fun. And Micah asked a great question. I’m like, thanks, Micah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (45:40):
Yeah. Well, let’s get in the word, make sure that we are disciplining ourselves to understand the context, the genre, the application to the immediate situation. In all these situations, we can observe, we can interpret, then we can apply. You’ve got some really practical tools. And to encourage your friends, you might give it a try. Give scripture a try. Start them in the book of John. Explain what that’s about, who John was related to Jesus, and then go from there.

I think it’s a myth that Gen Z, Gen Z, young adults don’t care about scripture. I think they want to know. A lot of the students here are like, I want to ask a question. And they ask it very sincerely, and you realize it’s easy for them to ask the question because they’re not committing to whether they’ll believe it. It’s like, what do you think? What is your view of this? But it’s still an opportunity to plant seeds if you’re willing.

Dr. Matt Jones (46:45):
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, my wife and I have enjoyed being part of the process to plant seeds. You just don’t know when this stuff is going to germinate in their hearts and their heads. That’s right. Yeah. And I appreciate the work that you and your summit crew do, and it’s really impressive. It’s praying and praising the work of the spirit and the hearts and the minds of these men and women.

Dr. Jeff Myers (47:13):
So glad you’re part of the team. Matt, thanks for being on the show today.

Dr. Matt Jones (47:15):
Appreciate it. Thank you.

Dr. Jeff Myers (47:16):
Thank you to my guest today, Dr. Matt Jones, for coming on the show. Scripture says that scripture is sharper than a two edged sword, and it’s profitable for teaching, for training, for correction, that God’s people may be more righteous. We need to be in scripture and we need to have the opportunity to encourage other people to be in scripture as well. God speaks through his word. So thanks for joining on the show today, and I hope that you’ll be able to take some of these principles that Dr. Jones shared practical steps and strategies home and use them to get to know God better and then share his word with others. Thanks for joining.

(48:01):
Hey, it’s Dr. Jeff from the Dr. Jeff Show podcast. I’m excited to be releasing a new book. This is the book I wrote during my cancer journey called Truth Changes Everything. It’s the book that I thought, if this is the last thing I ever get to write, this is what I want to write about. I want to write about truth.

I think at the core of all of the cultural conflicts we have today is a battle over truth. I mean a battle between the idea of capital-T truth, that truth actually exists and can be discovered. And the idea of small-t truth, that ultimate truth cannot be known. Truth is up to the individual. One side says, seek the truth. The other side says, speak your truth. Have you faced this in your road life? The question as I wrote the book is, alright, so what do you do?

(48:47):
There’s really a battle. You can really see that truth exists, but what’s the most helpful thing? So I went back into history and I just wrote the book telling stories of amazing people who were Jesus followers, who believed that Jesus is the truth, and as a result of that belief, they changed the world even in times of great crisis when it seemed that the world is going to come to an end.

If that sounds like the kind of book you’d like to read, I’d love for you to pre-order a copy wherever you get your books. And if you will take a picture of your receipt and send it to me at jeff@summit.org, then I’m going to send you a little signed book plate and then you can stick that inside your book when it arrives. You’ll have a signed copy of the book. The book is Truth Changes Everything, and my email is jeff@summit.org. Pre-order it please and then just send me the receipt and we’ll take it from there.

Listeners, I want you to know that our podcast is on Edifi, which is a truly powerful app that brings together thousands of the best Christian podcasts in one place for your listening enjoyment. You can download it at edifi.app. Be sure to share the show if you have enjoyed listening to it and leave a review if you would, on the site where you download the show that helps more people know about the Dr. Jeff Show, and I’ll look forward to seeing you next week.