The Dr. Jeff Show Ep. 75 – Jason Jimenez

Episode 75: Summary & Transcript

Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Dr. Jeff interviews Jason Jimenez, an author and podcast host, about his book and his approach to navigating difficult conversations on controversial topics. Jimenez explains that Christians often fall into two unhelpful categories: aggressors who attack, and avoiders who remain silent. He presents a third, biblical option: the advocator of God’s truth, who champions both the truth and the person with whom they are speaking.

Jimenez outlines his “Relate, Investigate, Translate” framework for these conversations and applies it to two timely examples: discussing the overturning of Roe v. Wade with a dissenting boss and a parent conversing with their child who has embraced progressive Christianity.

Episode Transcript

Ryan Dobson (00:00):
Hi everyone. Ryan Dobson here for the Dr. Jeff Show. Summit camps are in full swing and kids are having a blast. In fact, my own son Lincoln is attending right now. There are so many kids who want to go to camp at Summit, but they just need a little help. A generous donor has agreed to match every donation to the Summit summer programs. Will you help a child learn the foundations of a Christian worldview at Summit? Donate online at summit.org/match and every tax-free donation will be doubled. Again, you can find that at summit.org/match. God bless and let’s join the Dr. Jeff Show.

Dr. Jeff Myers (00:40):
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show podcast. You can get this show on Apple, Google, Spotify, Liftable, Edifi, or wherever you get your podcast. Please review the show, tell your friends about it. We want to grow the audience. Why? Because this is the show where I interview major thought leaders to demonstrate that their worldview changes everything.

My guest on today’s show is somebody I turn to when I am trying to figure out how to reasonably explain what I believe on a controversial topic. He’s not afraid of any of these issues. In fact, he regularly brings them up on one of two different podcasts. One’s called Challenging Conversations, and the other one is called Stand Strong in the Word. So please welcome Jason Jimenez to the show. Jason, welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show.

Jason Jimenez (01:33):
Great to be with you, Jeff.

Dr. Jeff Myers (01:34):
Man, it’s fun here during the summertime. I’m wearing shorts and flip-flops.

Jason Jimenez (01:39):
I’m not wearing shorts. I’m dressed better than the president of Summit.

Dr. Jeff Myers (01:45):
That’s not hard to do. That’s not hard to do. That’s not hard to do. That’s not really much of a claim to fame. No, it’s not. But this is great because during the summertime, we have all the students here and during the week we’re recording this. We have two things going on. We have the Summit in- person program.

(02:00):
And then we also have the summit virtual program running at the same time. So we’ve got 185 students here live, plus 50 something staff, mentors. And then in the online program, we’ve got about 200 students as well. And then we’re also recording podcasts. So we’re sort of doing a lot of shifting around. So thanks for taking time just to sit down for a few moments.

Jason Jimenez (02:19):
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Dr. Jeff Myers (02:20):
Now you’ve written this book for Summit Ministries. I have referenced it several times in the program, but this is the first time that we actually get to sit face to face and talk about it. Challenging Conversations. And let me give you a statistic and just let you reflect on this for a second.

As we’re doing, we’re doing a lot of polling at Summit. We’re not trying to become a polling company, but we do want to understand the cultural moment that we are a part of. And we asked people recently, “Do you think that transgenderism is a normal, healthy lifestyle?” I just want to know what people think. I’m not telling them what to think. Just want to know, what do you think? And two thirds of Americans said, “It is not a normal healthy lifestyle. I don’t believe that it is.”

(03:04):
But then we asked them, actually, what do you think? And some of them said, “I do not believe it’s a normal, healthy lifestyle, and I’m willing to say so.” And then we ask them this other question. It turns out a third of the people in America say, “I do not believe transgenderism is a normal, healthy lifestyle, but I don’t say anything so as not to offend anyone.”

Now, this topic, we’re not talking about transgenderism today. I’m just using that as an illustration to say that there are a lot of people who think something in this country, but they don’t want to talk about it. They’re silent in the face of what’s most important because they don’t want to offend anyone, or maybe they’re afraid. Afraid they’ll lose their job or whatever else it is. Your approach in challenging conversations is don’t be silent, bring it up. Why do you say that?

Jason Jimenez (04:09):
So Jeff, and this is so true no matter the topic, no matter the person or the circumstance, because people watching or listening, they have a challenging conversation coming up with a father, a mother, a sibling, a spouse, a pastor, a colleague, a friend, whether it be a college friend or a distant friend or a distant relative or a sibling. And it could be on Roe v. Wade being overturned. It could be on transgenderism.

I was inundated yesterday here at Summit with so many of our students who come to us saying, “I have a sibling now who’s come out. My parents are wrestling through it. Can you give us any advice?” I mean, over and over and over again. So there’s always going to be challenging conversations that we have to address and I call them a necessary evil. We don’t want to have them, but we need to have them because if we don’t speak up and speak the truth in love Ephesians 4:15, then we actually become an enabler, right?

Dr. Jeff Myers (05:05):
Okay.

Jason Jimenez (05:06):
We enable whatever is going on. We may not believe that particular idea or lifestyle or point of view or interpretation of scripture, but not saying anything is telling the other person that one, you either don’t care about it or two, you’re too good to respond to that person and they can take it as a sign of arrogance. And so what I say is Jesus spoke to all kinds of issues and his approach was different depending on the person, the topic, and the circumstance.

Dr. Jeff Myers (05:39):
Right. So you’re not talking about, let me just get my opinion on the record here. No. No. You’re talking about engaging people at the heart and mind level. Yeah.

Jason Jimenez (05:49):
So in the book, we refer to it as an advocator of God’s truth, which is someone who is a conversant Christian. I’m not saying you’re an expert in everything, okay? I’m saying that you have to be conversant. Notice that a conversant Christian is someone who’s wanting to have conversations with human beings because if the dialogue stops in a relationship, the relationship dies.

So if we’re not having these meaningful, challenging conversations, then how deep and rich and meaningful are those relationships? You may not always agree. See, that’s the other thing, Jeff. In surveying, when we’re doing the work for the book, you find that so many Christians think that even disagreeing with another fellow brother or sister in Christ is wrong.

Dr. Jeff Myers (06:38):
It’s unloving?

Jason Jimenez (06:38):
It’s unloving. That’s being divisive and we’re not supposed to be that and we’re supposed to be like- minded and that’s true, but they take things out of context. So actually when I was looking at that when Romans 14:1 says, “Do not quarrel over meaningless things.” Where you see in 1 Corinthians 8 about them debating over, what do they do with meat that’s been given over to idols? Do you eat it? Do not eat it. There’s these open debates.

And then in 1 Corinthians 11, there’s a clear debate that Paul lays out and says, “If you’re not a believer, you don’t take the communion.” So there’s some things where, like, “Look, that’s your preference. Don’t cause people to stumble, whatever you decide to do, make sure you’re not crawling over meaningless things.”

So there are disagreements, but we’re not going to compromise here. And that’s what we’re trying to teach Christians today in all of the chaos that we’re seeing in confusion, that listen, when you hear something that is biblically wrong, you need to pray about it and you need to speak up about it because we’re either having the avoider or the aggressor.

(07:42):
The aggressor says, “I’m going to speak down, I’m going to speak away, I’m going to mock, put you in your place, prove that you’re wrong, you don’t know what you’re talking about, make you feel stupid.”

Dr. Jeff Myers (07:51):
Right. Watch so and so smash the pro-abortion its argument in 10 seconds.

Jason Jimenez (07:55):
Exactly. Or like you see on Fox News or CNN, whatever, you’ve got the Republican versus the Democrat and they go toe to toe and they just argue over each other. And sometimes we can get that narrative or think that that’s how we’re supposed to portray. And we know here at Summit and beyond based on scripture, that is not the approach of Jesus and that’s not what we’re supposed to do.

However, Christians, we’re not mainly aggressors, we’re mainly avoiders. And all the audiences that I’ve gone around and traveled, I always ask them, “What do you guys think in this audience, whether they’re young or old, do we have more avoiders in the church or do we have more aggressors in the church?” Jeff, by far the audiences always say avoiders.

Dr. Jeff Myers (08:32):
So there’s a spectrum here, aggressor over here, avoider here, and you’re seeing that Christians move toward that avoider stance.

Jason Jimenez (08:41):
Yeah. But a lot of people are deconverting. A lot of people have issues with Christianity. A lot of the talking points that come out, a lot of the responses that people give are based on the aggressor’s response. So the aggressors are making all the noise because they’re the loud ones. They’re the ones that are arguing. They’re the ones saying, “I’m going out there. I’m not backing down. I’m not ashamed, not unafraid.”

But they’re doing it in an unloving fashion that I would say, in all due respect based on Colossians 4:6, Ephesians 4:15, their speech is not seasoned with salt and they’re not speaking the truth and love and they’re not filled with the Holy Spirit. And so they’re doing that in the flesh. Now on the flip side, the avoider who’s not speaking up and they’re speaking away and making excuses not to get involved, that’s unloving as well because then you’re enabling that point of view.

(09:27):
And we teach here that ideas have consequences. And if you’re not injecting that in respectful fashion, then that person more often than not will continue to disseminate or spread that false ideology.

Dr. Jeff Myers (09:42):
Okay. Now you’re suggesting in the book and this, as soon as I read it, even before I had read the whole book, when I read the first three pages, I thought this is the breakthrough that we’re looking for. And you know that I actually probably texted you in the middle of the night. Yeah, you did. This is the breakthrough that we’ve been looking for. Can you teach this to every group of Summit students for forever?

Jason Jimenez (10:06):
Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (10:07):
Because you add a third dimension. You say people mostly go back from aggressor to avoider, but you say add another dimension.

Jason Jimenez (10:15):
The dimension that we say that’s biblical, being in step with the spirit, right?

Dr. Jeff Myers (10:19):
Yes.

Jason Jimenez (10:20):
Being like Christ is the advocator of God’s truth. So we’re not speaking away because we want to dodge it and avoid it and look for the nearest exit. We’re not speaking down and mocking the questions and the challenges that people have. We’re actually the advocate of God’s truth who actually is the exhorter who says, “You know what? I’m going to fill this space with you because I love you. Because if I love God and I’m a conduit of his truth, I’m an advocate of his truth, then I’m going to stand the gap between you and me.”

We may not, at the end of the conversation, agree on your point of view on abortion and my point of view that abortion is the killing of innocent human life. But what I’m trying to encourage Jeff Christians to do is to relate to the people that do not have your point of view.

(11:09):
They don’t see eye to eye with you. And you know what? It doesn’t have to be the atheist. This could be a progressive leaning Christian or this could be somebody who’s biblically literate and they don’t know a thing or two and they’ve been persuaded by a counselor or a professor or a parent, somebody who’s mentored them and shaped their worldview falsely. You have to meet them where they’re at and be present and exhort that out of them. And that’s where a lot of times we get defensive or we get intimidated, we get overwhelmed. And one thing I talk about in the first chapter is we don’t like to feel uncomfortable.

And that actually, Jeff, has caused so many Christians to remove themselves from the conversation because they don’t like to feel uncomfortable. They don’t like to be put on the spot. I cannot tell how many Christians told me when I think about having that challenging conversation about anything, about abortion, whatever, about CRT with somebody who I know is pretty well read and they’ve been putting out a lot of stuff on social media and I’m like irritated to see what they’re posting or shocked that they’re posting it.

(12:12):
I know I need to talk to them, but I keep failing to have that conversation or when we do get together, I just talk about other things. So I feel guilty. But every time I run through my head, I think about it, it sends shivers down their spines causing that person to get defensive, causing that person to get hit or hurt or offended. And so therefore they retreat. And that makes people overwhelmingly filled with anxiety, Jeff. And this is now having major consequences, not just in the gospel spreading, but just having authentic, real conversations and relationships.

And that’s the perspective and the approach that we’ve tried to take in this space of worldview training on critically thinking, what you believe and why you believe it. That’s why we address nine key controversial topics, but showing them how an advocator of God’s truth responds to each one of these topics with somebody who opposes your point of view.

Dr. Jeff Myers (13:06):
Let me just summarize this for a minute because I think the last three minutes of the conversation have been gold. I mean, it’s all been really good, but the last four.

Jason Jimenez (13:15):
Thank you, Jeff. And the rest of it’s going to just not be good at all.

Dr. Jeff Myers (13:18):
Let’s forget all the rest. The last three minutes though, what I’m hearing is you’re rising above the avoider aggressor spectrum. Like you’re turning it into a triangle, you’re rising above it. An advocator is at the top and you are advocating for two things. You are advocating for the truth and you are advocating for the other person.

Jason Jimenez (13:46):
Exactly.

Dr. Jeff Myers (13:47):
If you fail to advocate for either the truth or for the other person, then you feel this sense of guilt and anxiety that comes from knowing that this conversation needs to be had, but you aren’t doing your job.

Jason Jimenez (14:04):
Yeah. Because you’re so right, because what’s happened is a lot of Christians say, “We can’t compromise on these truths,” but what they do is they compromise in their relationships.

Dr. Jeff Myers (14:12):
Right. Okay. Okay. All right. And at Summit, of course, we’re always showing our staff the double helix, the DNA double helix, truth and relationship are the two strands. You’re connecting truth and relationship for people every day, which is great in theory. Now, let’s use the rest of the show and dig into some issues that I know people are having to have these difficult conversations about right now. Is that all right?

Jason Jimenez (14:41):
Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Jeff Myers (14:44):
Let’s start with Roe v. Wade.

Jason Jimenez (14:45):
Okay.

Dr. Jeff Myers (14:47):
There are a lot of people, I’m one who rejoices at this decision. I never believed that this would really happen during my lifetime, that the federal government would be denied its usurping role and take over the responsibility for determining when life begins. The Supreme Court should never have gotten into that, in my view.

At Summit Ministries, we teach our students what pro-life stance, but there are a lot of people who are triggered right now by this, and it could be a third of the people in the country who are very triggered because they don’t view this as progress that the states will now be making these decisions.

They view this as somehow a loss of their personal power, their personal autonomy. It’s the loss of power at the federal government level that they were glad was amassing because it was sending the country in a progressive direction that they wanted it to go. Yeah. Okay. Is that a fair way to state? So let’s say you’re talking with someone about the issue and Roe v. Wade comes up.

(16:04):
And the person says something like, “This is the biggest disaster in 50 years in America that this happened.” All right. Help me through that conversation. Now, let’s say I’m at work, just to make this a little harder, and it’s my boss who just said this. It’s your boss. Yeah. So I can’t be snotty. Yeah. I want to leave the other person thinking, but I don’t want to lose my job and I don’t want to lose the opportunities for promotion. And then maybe I have to. Maybe I just have to be willing to say, “You know what? That might be the price that I pay.” But help me through that conversation. Yeah.

Jason Jimenez (16:53):
So this is good. Again, let’s go back to those three things. It doesn’t matter what the topic is, who the person is, your boss or not your boss, and the circumstance. Okay? So as an advocator of God’s truth, we’re going to do three tactics that we’re going to apply into any conversation with any person in any setting. Number one, what we have to do in this situation is relate with your boss or your colleague, your sibling, your spouse, whatever. We’ll get to that in a minute. From there, we’re going to go, so that’s a friend role. They relate, I call it the friend. Be a friend to your boss. And yes, that’s possible. You can be friends with your boss to some degree.

Dr. Jeff Myers (17:25):
Sure.

Jason Jimenez (17:26):
Two is investigate, then you become an investigator. There’s some research that you’re going to be doing along the way, and we’ll get to that in a minute, Jeff. And then, third one is to translate. Then you become the translator. After everything said and done, could be a five minute conversation, could be an hour conversation over Starbucks, a mill, or walk in a park.

Dr. Jeff Myers (17:47):
Relate, investigate, translate.

Jason Jimenez (17:49):
That’s right. So that’s what you want. That’s what an advocator of God’s truth. We’re not the avoider. We’re not the aggressor. We’re going to be an advocator of God’s truth. Speak the truth in love, Ephesians 4:15, by doing those three tactics. So we’ll start with number one. So he is vocalizing.

Now we got to understand. So this is very important too in the psychological world. He is very opinionative of his stance on something that is wrong, that he believes to be morally wrong. They don’t have a right to have done that. They went rogue. Those Supreme Court justices, they’re destroying all the work we’ve done for feminism and for human rights and iIn universal healthcare. And this is going to be a disaster, right?

Now this is your boss and this is in a work environment. So I would already go ahead and say to the person watching or listening, if they’ve ever been in that situation or find themselves in that situation. Just like the professor who’s just trashing Christianity, the student’s job is not to mock or put down or try to correct the professor. They own that space. Yes. Your boss owns that space to some degree. Okay?

That doesn’t mean that his rights trump your rights, but what it means is you’ve got to be pretty winsome here. Be a little clever. Like Jesus did oftentimes in scripture. So this is how you relate. You say, “Well, boss, you seem really upset by the ruling of overturning Roe v. Wade. Why?”

(19:13):
So then they give you this diatribe of things, right? Second question that you can ask him relating as you’re building rapport with him. Just say, “You know what? I have, and maybe this is true, I have a friend who’s really upset as well. What should I be saying to my friend? See what he says. Tell them that they’re right about this. ” You know what I mean? So they’re backing all the supporters, that sort of thing, right? And you say, “That’s interesting.”

So you’re relating, you’re building rapport, that sort of thing, being present, you’re listening, you’re being attentive, nod your head like just listening. Then in the investigate, you say, “Was there any time in your life where you thought that pro-life was the right option? Were you ever a defender of the life in the womb, for example?” See what they say. Where did you start getting these ideas?

(20:00):
Where do you find yourself believing these things to be true? Was there somebody who influenced you, who shaped you? As an investigator, I want to get the backstory to what I’m seeing in the present.

Dr. Jeff Myers (20:10):
Yeah.

Jason Jimenez (20:11):
Okay. Where are the roots to this particular idea and passion? So how did you arrive at that? How’d you come to this conclusion? Type thing. And I find when you go in someone’s backstory by saying, who influenced you? Who shaped you to form these ideas today? I want to know that. I’m not saying anything.

Dr. Jeff Myers (20:28):
Yeah.

Jason Jimenez (20:28):
And depending on where the probing questions come from, you’ve got to make adjustments sometimes because if something goes, if you go down the wrong path, you’ve got to kind of bring it back again sometimes. And I always tell people sometimes, “I may completely, totally disagree with what the person’s saying to me, but I’m asking questions as an investigator.”

But what I oftentimes do, sometimes, Jeff, is I’ll then throw in some compliments. I don’t agree with anything they said, but I’ll say, “You know what, boss? Seems like you’ve really done your research in this, that you’re really passionate about this.” It’s kind of a compliment, right? Okay. I see your vigor, I see your excitement, and that kind of boosts them, their ego a little bit, that you’re paying attention that you’re tracking with them. I’m not agreeing with them, but I’m tracking with them.

(21:08):
There’s a difference. Then when you get into the translate, then I’m going to start presenting a case. And I do something a little bit different than one of our colleagues, and I do this in the book on the chapter on abortion. Does a woman have a right to have an abortion? That’s the question. That’s the challenging conversation before us. The first thing I start off with, my premise, is human lives have intrinsic value.

(21:31):
And I’ve used this a lot. So what I’m doing is, I’m using it as a deflective. You’re fighting for human rights. You’re fighting for Black Lives Matter. You’re fighting for the impoverished. You’re fighting for the oppressed. You’re saying slavery is wrong. I agree with you in all those things. And so I say, do you believe through my boss that all human lives have value and trans value? Well, absolutely. I do too. So now what I just do, I just find common ground with him.

(21:54):
I haven’t agreed with him on anything, but I’m listening to him. Track with him, give him a compliment. But now what the translate point here is, I’m saying, okay, let’s land this plane. He believes that all human lives have intrinsic value. I said, “I do too.” I said, “Do you believe in science?” I do. I believe in science.

He says, “Well, you know, science proves that the life of the unborn, that’s a human life. That living being in that woman’s womb, that’s human life. And if we just said that all lives have human value, intrinsic value, and science proves and you’re a believer in science, now science is not infallible, but we do believe in science, what does that conclude? That concludes that unborn life has intrinsic value.” So now I just want to see his response to that main issue and take it off the issue of Roe v. Wade.

Dr. Jeff Myers (22:40):
Okay. So at that point, you’re not asking your boss to agree with you or affirm that you are correct and he is incorrect in this. You’re just presenting the information in the context of the discussion.

Jason Jimenez (22:56):
Yeah, because if I can, and this goes a long way, because I always try to teach Christians, this is what we do in the book. It’s not a one and done conversation. Try to build a relationship. If I don’t build rapport in the first tactic, then I will never get to the other two and more than likely I will never have a relationship with that person.

(23:14):
And our job is to love people and have relationships with them. So that’s a great starting point for people to take. What happens, they get very defensive. Remember the aggressor comes out and that’s the flesh. And then the other thing is, from that standpoint, they get defensive. And then if you go political, then you just went on a whole rabbit trail and you’ve lost. Both of you will lose in the end and you’ll both part ways and then your boss will say to you, “I don’t like that person.That’s a bigot, fundamentalist, narrow-minded Christian, religious fanatic.” And you’re going to say, “I don’t like these progressive liberal minded…” You know what I mean?

Dr. Jeff Myers (23:48):
Yes.

Jason Jimenez (23:48):
And then you’re going to hate him all the more. Yeah. And sometimes that Christian will then bail and leave that workspace and go somewhere else because of it. When God maybe was calling that Christian to toe the line, to be faithful and to be a witness there. So that’s leaving things in the wrong circumstance or leaving that boss with a bad taste in his mouth because you didn’t properly approach the conversation in a winsome way.

Dr. Jeff Myers (24:17):
Okay. So you’re relating, investigating, translating. And in the translate phase, you’re trying to get to what the core issue is.

Jason Jimenez (24:25):
What the core issue is, and there’s three key questions, last thing on that. And this is so important. I apply this in meetings and everyday life, Jeff, and it’s so important. Number one is, what did we learn? See, a lot of times we just go back and forth, back and forth, and we just end it and say, “Okay, that’s it.” But we stop as two adults and say, “What did I learn about you? What did you learn about me?”

Number two, even though you are a progressive person who believes that bodily autonomy trumps the life of the unborn, and I didn’t agree with you and you didn’t agree with my stance, but where did we agree? We did agree on some things. And what were those things? Well, we did say that all lives have intrinsic value. Okay?

(25:07):
So we did agree on some things. And the last thing is, where do we go from here? Do we want to continue this conversation? Do we want to continue this relationship? Am I someone that you find to be thrilling and exhilarating to have a conversation? Because I would. See, I think it’s the Christian’s responsibility. If I was building rapport up here, I’ve got to maintain that rapport here and say, “I would love to continue this conversation if you’re willing.”

And now it’s in their court to say, “I would like that.” They can say yes or no. If they say yes, then schedule it down the road and keep building that conversation and just avoid that arguing, avoid getting political, avoid trying to be right and they don’t know what they’re talking about and they’re ruining America. Look at him as a human being who’s lost.

Dr. Jeff Myers (25:53):
Right. Wow.

Jason Jimenez (25:55):
That’s the key.

Dr. Jeff Myers (25:57):
This is really rich and I’m really glad to have the conversation with you about this. I do want to encourage everybody who’s watching or listening right now on all these various channels to get a copy of the book, which you can get at summit.org or anywhere else.

Jason Jimenez (26:14):
Yeah. Or they can go to challengingconversations.org. We have a main, yeah, which feeds back to Summit, Amazon, all where books are sold, they can get Challenging Conversations.

Dr. Jeff Myers (26:23):
If you go to challengingconversations.org, then you also have video clips there, all of those kinds of things. Yes. So this would be a really valuable small group course, Sunday school course, Sunday evening course, Wednesday evening course, home study with your friends, maybe really more important now than even last year, just because we do have a political season coming up and Americans seem to be really passionate right now on one side or the other with what’s happening politically. Yes.

Jason Jimenez (27:01):
Okay. And we have a chapter devoted on the political issue and it leads right into the racism conversation as well.

Dr. Jeff Myers (27:08):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I loved the book. I love the fact that you didn’t leave any of the difficult issues out. I was texting a little bit earlier today and you were at other meetings and so we’re kind of hit or miss, but you mentioned some of the big topics that people are talking with you about right now include things like progressive Christianity and just before the show we were talking about that. So let’s take that issue for a minute.

Let’s say now we’re switching over and there’s a parent and a child. The child goes off to Christian college, let’s say. They might go to a secular university and come back and say, “I don’t know. I think I’m an agnostic now.” But if they go to a Christian college, they might very well come back and say, “Oh yeah, I’m still a Christian, but I’m a progressive. I’m a progressive Christian.” And you’re thinking, “What on earth does that mean? What are they even saying about Jesus now? How do we have this conversation?”

So there are a couple of things happening, right? You’re a parent, so you know what, there are two things in every conversation. There’s what’s being talked about, and then there’s what’s really being talked about.

Jason Jimenez (28:21):
That’s right.

Dr. Jeff Myers (28:22):
And what’s really being talked about there is, are my parents out of touch? Everybody gets this except my parents, and should I continue to believe them? Do they know what they’re talking about?

Jason Jimenez (28:39):
Right.

Dr. Jeff Myers (28:40):
So let’s say you’re the parent in this situation, and you’ve got to have this conversation.

Jason Jimenez (28:45):
Yeah. Well, see, Jeff, sometimes what if scenarios are hard because one, we’re assuming a lot, but we know this is reality that people are faced with right now. So when I say the what if scenario, let’s go a little deeper and say that this individual who’s come back from this enlightenment period where they’ve gone through a deconstruction of their faith to some degree and they are now deconverting from that to go more progressive leaning. So they’re still religious, but they’re not following the rigidity and the traditionalism of their parents.

Now, I will say, at my stage of life, raising Gen Z kids and working with millennials and Gen Z for the last 25 years, I get it with where a lot of these young people are coming from of how they view mom and dad’s church or grandma and grandpa’s church and what the church has done and not letting them doubt out loud and not equipping them properly because that’s what the Bible says, Ephesians 4:12, equip the saints for the work of the ministry.

(29:46):
To become critical thinkers, to be lovers of God’s word and discipleship. Not all the burden should be on the church, but this is the primary disciplers, mom and dad. So if there is definitely disrespect in issues where they’ve seen hypocrisy mom and dad, this goes beyond progressive Christianity. That’s right.

But let’s say that mom and dad have been awesome. They’ve done their best by the grace of God. They’ve parented with grace. They’ve parented with humility. They’ve come, they laugh at their kids, they’ve been open with their kids. They’ve valued their kids, encouraged their kids, and they are struggling in their faith. Let’s say this kid has given their faith over to the Lord. They put their faith in trust in Jesus Christ when they were in fifth grade and now they’re a sophomore in college and they’re becoming more progressive leaning. They’re looking at the social justice issues.

(30:29):
They’re buying into hook, line, and sinker with critical race theory. They’re saying, “We’ve got to be more anti-racist, mom and dad, and you guys aren’t. You guys have been colorblind.” You’re always going around with being colorblind. And they’re getting them on these things and they’re saying there’s portions of scripture where it’s not true. They’ve just been hijacked here and there and we can’t really validate certain passages of scripture.

(30:51):
Did Jesus Christ really rise from the dead? Now, when you start getting into those essential things, that’s what I would say to the parent. That’s a red flag. Now, before you jump into these issues, particularly, mom and dad have to find out, again, just let’s go back to what an advocator of God’s truth does, more so with a parent who loves that child more than anybody. You have children, I have children. Who loves our kids more than we do? And especially as fathers, we are supposed to spiritually lead our family. So there’s some troubling things.

Now, hopefully that parent’s already been seeing some red flags, seeing some things that their kid has been doing on social media or hanging out with certain people. I’ve been inundated through the years, Jeff, with people sending emails saying, “My kid was at a rally. I didn’t know they went to that rally. They’re holding the rainbow flag. When did this come? When did this happen?” And maybe it was the influence of a friend or a girlfriend or a boyfriend. So here we are. This is a situation. First thing you don’t want to do is correct that son or that daughter.

(31:45):
That would not be good. Because what they’re saying, like you said, there’s something else going beyond that. They’re saying this, what’s really going on. What they’re saying is, “I don’t buy into what you’ve taught me. I’m struggling with that. I’ve been enlightened. I’ve gone through deconstruction. This has been freeing for me.”

Dr. Jeff Myers (32:03):
Okay. I see what you’re getting at. So you used that term, it was a period of enlightenment.

Jason Jimenez (32:08):
Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (32:09):
If they’re finally talking with you about it, it could be because they feel a clarity that they haven’t felt before.

Jason Jimenez (32:17):
Right. And you want to validate. As I tell people, you may appreciate what they’re telling you without approving it. You can appreciate their honesty without vindicating it or validating it. Same thing with a kid, comes and says, “I’m gay.” They say they’re gay. You don’t say, “No, you’re not gay. We didn’t raise you that way.” That’s not their response.

But sadly, that’s what a lot of parents have done thinking they’re doing the right thing. Or they just shut down completely and they’re just feeling like a miserable parent and they’re just guilt ridden by that. Well, that doesn’t help your son or daughter either, right?

So what do you need to do? You need to listen and ask good questions and be present with that son or daughter to let them know that you can take it. You appreciate their honesty without having to approve what they’re saying to be true. Now, they may have gone through some bits and pieces of reform that’s been good for them and you can acknowledge that.

But then you can also as a parent say, “Hey, you came to me with this. Can I say something in return after I listen to you?” Ask for permission because they’re the ones that have set this environment up. And I always remind that to parents, especially the older kids, right? Because your role is no longer in the driver’s seat. You’re a passenger. You went from being the guardian to now being the coach.

(33:36):
So the coach says, “Hey, are you good? Can I now speak to some things?” Absolutely. Okay. You know I love you, affirm those things. I appreciate all of this. Let me process it so I don’t have all my thoughts together, but just for now, here are some concerns that I’m having hearing from you or I just need some clarification.

And let them share those things and then put it together with, if you are married, you have a spouse or you have a mentor couple or a pastor, you know what I mean, that you can go to and confide to that respects the privacy of your family during this time, but can give wise and godly counsel to how to respond in the next phase. And then now you both set the stage together in the second talk to now go deeper. Right. What we do is we hear it and we get defensive, we freak out and what we do, it’s mass hysteria, Jeff, and then we start getting in an argument with our son or daughter.

Dr. Jeff Myers (34:38):
Different families process that differently. Some of them, but you’re inviting more conversation is what you’re doing.

Jason Jimenez (34:44):
Because it’s always about that relationship.

Dr. Jeff Myers (34:45):
You’re not saying it’s all about you taking the stand at this moment. Here I stand.

Jason Jimenez (34:51):
That’s right.

Dr. Jeff Myers (34:52):
It’s more, let’s set the stage to go to the next step in our relationship.

Jason Jimenez (34:58):
Yes. You want to keep that relationship going because think about it. If your son or daughter continues to go down that path of being gay or being bi or trans or become more progressive and they start denying the infallibility of scripture, Jesus isn’t God, Jesus didn’t atone for our sins and all that stuff. And they start living in a completely different life and they’re still saying they’re spiritual, religious, or they go Christian mystic on you. Don’t you want to be there for your son or daughter?

(35:24):
Don’t you want to say, as I was just counseling a group not too long ago, Jeff, who came to this meeting that I was conducting to provide guidance for families who have children who’ve come out gay. And one of the things I recommend in that talk is read what they’re reading, ask what they’re reading, go on some of those YouTube channels. Now some of it might be disturbing for some of you.

And so sometimes what happens is mom and dad deviate it up. Dad will watch this and mom will watch that because mom can’t watch this and dad can’t watch that. You know what I mean? So make sure it’s appropriate. But what you want to do is, you want to try to live in their world. Remember, you and I have the power of the Holy Spirit in us. If you’re a follower of Jesus Christ, the faith that you and I have has overcome the world, 1 John 5:4.

(36:08):
So we’re not to be afraid of the darkness. And so if our son or daughter is slipping into it, we believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. We believe in his truth. We want to be that advocator to them. So if you blow it by being that aggressor, or if you’re that avoider and you’re in denial, think, what’s going to happen? Then your son or daughter’s thinking, you don’t care. Or see, you’re not standing for the truth and this is part of the hypocrisy that I can’t stand anymore. And they stop talking to you.

Dr. Jeff Myers (36:33):
And that can happen even if your response is, “You know what? Whatever you decide is right for you and I just want you to know that I will love you no matter what,” still is a disappointing response to someone who has been through something they believe is clarifying or enlightening.

Jason Jimenez (36:52):
Yeah, that’s a cop out.

Dr. Jeff Myers (36:53):
They feel that they’re being dismissed.

Jason Jimenez (36:55):
Exactly.

Dr. Jeff Myers (36:56):
So you can’t just easily get away with, “Well, you do you and I’ll do me.” That’s dismissive as well as well, everything that you’re saying is wrong.

Jason Jimenez (37:08):
Because if it’s important to them in their mind, it needs to be important to you. And I always remind people, this may sound weird, Jeff, but I hope your listeners understand this point. I think more mature parents who’ve raised kids who are in their adult years and maybe even some grandparents will understand this probably better than younger parents, but you know what? They’re still talking about faith.

(37:30):
And they’re still wanting to talk about it with you. Yeah. So what your responsibility, I’m addressing this in my new book called Parenting Gen Z. I have a whole chapter on, model the faith. Sounds simple, but you know what? My son or daughter may not believe everything that I believe, but they look at how I live out my faith. They may not read the books that I read. They may never gone to Summit and hang out with people like us, but you know what? They’re watching how I live out my faith and I want to make sure that that sticks. That’s right. Because moms and dads are still the most powerful influencer in a child’s life, period.

(38:13):
Not the professor, not the TikTok sensation person who’s doing these dances that I know you watch too, Jeff. But you know what I mean? But like it’s mom and dad. But mom and dad, guess what? You’ve got to be modeling it. You’ve got to be authentic, consistent. Yeah. You’ve got to be demonstrating your faith, not just go to church for a fill-up, but you’ve got to be living it out day by day.

And that’s what young people, sadly from Gen Z, millennials are hungry that they failed to see because a lot of them come from broken homes, and they didn’t see the authenticity or the genuineness of that. The only time faith was talked about was when there was a crisis.

Dr. Jeff Myers (38:47):
Yeah.

Jason Jimenez (38:48):
Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (38:49):
This has been so good. We probably, I’m just thinking, each time we bring up a new topic on the show or a new thing comes up in the press, everybody’s concerned about this right now. We should do another little segment where we talk about, help us process through how to talk about this. So I’ve picked up so much from your book, Challenging Conversations, and I have appreciated your other books as well. I haven’t read all of them.

Jason Jimenez (39:20):
You’ve got to do that.

Dr. Jeff Myers (39:21):
Yep.

Jason Jimenez (39:22):
We’ll do a show on every book now, okay?

Dr. Jeff Myers (39:24):
But you’ve really, with your work, and we’ll give your website in the wraps here, but you really are the guy helping parents right now figure out how to relate to and talk to their kids about issues of faith in this climate of growing unbelief. And you’ve really helped us today. I mean, this is practical. How do you talk to somebody who’s your boss? How do you talk to a child? And those are two of the very, very common situations that we all face in life.

Jason Jimenez (40:01):
And if I may, Jeff, just one last thing, because we always want to leave people feeling like, “You know what? I may have not done what you guys have suggested or pointed out.” Matter of fact, I did the opposite. One time when my son came to me, I gave him a list of books that he needed to be reading and tried to deconvert him back to the faith or something. You know what I mean? I’ve yelled at them. We’ve got in arguments. I’ve not always modeled the faith. Look, God is a God of grace. Yes. And we’ve all made missteps and mistakes. We’ve all taken the reins and thought we could do it better than God. We’ve all said we trust God and then we don’t.

(40:37):
And I have to tell parents, listen, it’s an everyday renewal of your faith and your love for your family. And so if you’ve blown it before, ask them genuinely for forgiveness and make sure too, because you have parents who can say, “I’m sorry, will you forgive me?” Then they do it again. But when you do that, one, you want to make sure you’re repentant, but also find accountability, find people that will hold you accountable, that you don’t lose your cool when your kids are rebellious. You know what I mean?

Because far too many of these parents these days, Jeff, are lonely and they don’t know who to turn to. One of the stats I saw that came out of George Barna with Arizona Christian University, only 26% of people admire, look up to pastors. So we know a lot of young people and their parents, they don’t have somebody, a spiritual advisor that they can go to that they can trust with their problems.

Dr. Jeff Myers (41:32):
Yeah.

Jason Jimenez (41:32):
But I’m just telling parents, even if you don’t have that right now, pray for that and God will give it to you, but don’t let up, keep loving your kid even though you’ve blown it because you know what? They want your love. They need your love. And I just want parents to know that so they don’t lose hope in the midst of some of this chaos sometimes.

Dr. Jeff Myers (41:51):
I think that’s the word of hope that all of us as parents are looking for. Thanks, Jason, for your time today.

Jason Jimenez (41:57):
Thank you, Jeff.

Dr. Jeff Myers (41:58):
Thank you to my guest today, Jason Jimenez, for joining on the show. Well, we got into a lot of controversial topics. And if you want more information about how you can talk to people who even disagree with you completely on everything and bring them closer to the truth, then you want to know more about Jason’s resources. And you can find them at standstrongministries.org. You can also follow Jason on Twitter and on Instagram @jasonpjimenez, and that’s J-I-M-E-N-E-Z.

In the Old Testament, God encouraged Joshua to meditate on the word of God. He said, “Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid. Do not be discouraged for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go. ” That’s an encouraging word. And that’s our encouragement for this week. See you soon.

Ryan Dobson (42:51):
Thanks for listening to the Dr. Jeff Show. And don’t forget, you can help a child attend Summit summer session by going to summit.org/match. All your donations that are tax deductible will be doubled. God bless, have a great week, and we’ll see you next time for another Dr. Jeff Show.

Dr. Jeff Myers (43:12):
Listeners, I want you to know that our podcast is on Edifi, which is a truly powerful app that brings together thousands of the best Christian podcasts in one place. For your listening enjoyment, you can download it at edifi.app. Be sure to share this show if you have enjoyed listening to it and leave a review, if you would, on the site where you download the show, that helps more people know about the Dr. Jeff Show, and I’ll look forward to seeing you next week.