The Dr. Jeff Show Ep. 76 – Greg Koukl

Episode 76: Summary & Transcript

Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Dr. Jeff interviews Greg Koukl, the founder of Stand to Reason Ministries, about his book Tactics. Koukl explains his question-based method for engaging in worldview conversations, which he called “The Colombo” technique. He details the three main steps of this approach: gathering information, asking for the reasoning behind a belief, and using questions to make a point or expose a flaw. Koukl provides examples of how to apply these tactics in conversations with an atheist regarding the problem of evil and with a “new spiritualist” who believes everything is God, emphasizing a gentle, curious, and non-confrontational style.

Episode Transcript

Ryan Dobson (00:00):
Hi everyone. Ryan Dobson here for the Dr. Jeff Show. Summit camps are in full swing and kids are having a blast. In fact, my own son Lincoln is attending right now. There are so many kids who want to go to camp at Summit, but they just need a little help. A generous donor has agreed to match every donation to the Summit summer programs. Will you help a child learn the foundations of a Christian worldview at Summit? Donate online at summit.org/match and every tax-free donation will be doubled. Again, you can find that at summit.org/match. God bless and let’s join the Dr. Jeff Show.

Dr. Jeff Myers (00:40):
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show podcast. I’m recording from my office again this week and want you to know that we are developing our new studio at Summit Ministries, the Mike S. Adams Memorial Studio. We’re using it for our Summit virtual programs and should be in there very soon. I’m really looking forward to that.

But I’d really like for you to just let your friends know about this podcast. You can find it on Apple, Google, Spotify, Edifi, Liftable, or wherever you get your podcast. If you let your friends know and you put a review on the website, that helps more people find out about it. And this show is spreading all over the world. So thank you for doing that.

I want to welcome a special guest to the podcast today. His name is Greg Koukl. Greg Koukl is the president and founder of Stand to Reason Ministries.

(01:26):
This has been a Summit Ministries partner for 20 years. His book, Tactics, is the number one selling book in the Summit Ministries Bookstore, a bestselling book across the United States of America. Greg has spoken on more than 70 college campuses and it’s a radio talk show host. Buckle up and get ready for a fascinating conversation about how you communicate truth, even with people who completely disagree with you. Greg, welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show.

Greg Koukl (01:54):
Dr. Jeff, I love Summit and I love you and I’m thrilled to be here. Genuinely and honestly, I’m not just saying that because that’s the way you start out a conversation. I love it.

Dr. Jeff Myers (02:03):
Well, you’re one of my heroes and so it’s fun to have you on the show and we get to do it because you are here speaking to the Summit Ministries students.

Greg Koukl (02:10):
That’s right. Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (02:11):
Both in the in-person session that is taking place right now, but also in the Summit virtual session that is taking place at the same time over in the Mike S. Adams Studio and then being broadcast all over the world.

Greg Koukl (02:23):
Yeah. I’m so thrilled to be part of this because I know it’s so leveraged. In fact, I mentioned to the students today, you got a full crowd. Every seat was full. And I told them, I don’t usually like talking to young people because it’s like talking to a painting, but Summit students are different.

Dr. Jeff Myers (02:38):
Yeah.

Greg Koukl (02:39):
Everybody’s taking notes. Everybody’s on top of things and they can follow what you’re saying. You don’t have to slow down and speak in simple sentences because these are kids that have good training, good backgrounds, good families. They get it and that’s why they’re here. And so I can move through the material and know that I’m making an investment in young people that are going to make a difference in the future.

And as I travel around the country, Jeff, I get so many people that tell me, I saw you at Summit four years ago, five years ago, 15 years ago, and they’re thanking me, but I know I’m talking to quality people because of all of the impact that Summit has had on their lives.

Dr. Jeff Myers (03:18):
Greg, you’ve not only had an impact on the Summit students, you’ve had an impact on the teachers of the Summit students. So we have 75 instructors who come through Summit’s doors at some point in the summertime. And I would say 10 of them, you’ve personally trained.

Greg Koukl (03:35):
Well, I’m glad that’s sweet to say that. And this really warms the cockles of my heart. Some of them are people that are on our team right now. Some are people like Brett Kunkel, for example, who was on our team and now has got his own enterprise or others and Scott Klusendorf who you used in the past. And well, it just magnifies my ministry, I guess. I’m thrilled to be able to have that impact too. That’s all leverage as far as I’m concerned. So I’m glad to hear that too.

Dr. Jeff Myers (03:59):
We get to have you out every once in a while.

Greg Koukl (04:02):
That’s right.

Dr. Jeff Myers (04:02):
We had a Summit base camp program, which anybody can see just by going to summit.org or summit.org/basecamp, and then they can see that three hour program that you and I did together. Then we get to have you out every once in a while here at Summit. But somebody you’ve trained is at every single Summit program that we do.

Greg Koukl (04:21):
Oh, sweet.

Dr. Jeff Myers (04:22):
Tens of thousands of people are reached every year as a result of that. So it’s really fun to actually have you here. And I was going to say in our studio, but the studio’s being used right now for Summit Virtual. So we’re in.

Greg Koukl (04:33):
Is this good?

Dr. Jeff Myers (04:34):
We’re in part of my office. I have two rooms full of books.That’s my office. But I’m really glad that you’re here also because the number one selling book at Summit Ministries is not my book Understanding the Times. Not that I’m bitter, I’m just mentioning this. Your book, Tactics, is the number one selling book in the Summit Ministries bookshop.

Greg Koukl (04:57):
Well, it’s shorter. It’s shorter and that makes it more appealing to readers. You have a tomb and you cover a lot more ground and a lot more sophisticated and thorough fashion. I’m trying to do a much simpler job and that is just to give a method of engagement where you can take what you learn, whether it’s summit or wherever and get it into play in a productive way. I call it a bridge from the content to the conversation or from the scholarship to the relationship.

And so you provide the content in that book and what I do with the tactics book is help your students and others to have a means, a game plan for taking that content and then getting it into play in a practical way that is amicable and friendly and easy and with no lines drawn in the sand and nobody with dukes up and fighting.

(05:51):
It has worked out so well for me for so many years as this has become a regular part of my own life. And for so many others that have read the book or watched the material, been trained here in somewhat, I give a shortened version, obviously here at Summit like I did this morning, but then when they put it into play in their own lives and they see how easy it is and how effective it is, I get the good news back wherever I go.

Dr. Jeff Myers (06:16):
Well, that book, Tactics, should be on every Christian’s bookshelf in my opinion. And you’ve written other books as well, but that one in particular grabs people because it’s the application, as you said. So we have a lot of material that we have here on all different aspects of a biblical worldview, but people begin asking very quickly, “All right, how do I use this in a conversation? What do I say if somebody says this? What do I say if somebody says that?”

And the strategies, the tactics that you give for how to have those conversations, it’s sort of like we can tune up the engine of some sort of a vehicle, but it’s got to get out on the road. How do you drive it? How do you actually drive this thing? And you tune up the engine differently and put on different kinds of tires if it’s going up the mountain or if it’s going on a racetrack, but how do you drive it? And each kind of conversation is a little bit of a different sort of a drive. Some are four wheel drives, some are a race track.

Greg Koukl (07:13):
That’s a good illustration. That’s right. Everybody’s an individual. I mentioned a verse this morning when I was setting up the idea of the concept of the game plan, and it’s in Colossians four, verse five and six. And there Paul simply says, how does he start it now? He talks about being sensitive to every circumstance, basically. Okay. And to be smart. Okay.

And then he says to season your words with salt and be gracious so that you can respond to each person. So the idea is that you want to conduct yourself with wisdom towards outsiders, that’s where he starts. Let your speech be with grace, be smart, be nice, but be tactical.

Dr. Jeff Myers (07:56):
Yes.

Greg Koukl (07:56):
Be tactical. Be sensitive to the fact that everybody’s a human being. Even if they’re New Agers or they’re atheists or they’re leftists of some sort, they’ve kind of fallen into these broader categories. They’re still individuals. And when, for example, atheists complain, “Oh, you Christians don’t even agree.” Well, you atheists don’t even agree. There are lots of different stripes.

And so when we talk to individuals, we want to try to focus down as much as possible on that person as an individual and let them talk for a while and let their ideas come out, let their point of view come out so you know what to work with and how to navigate. And back to your illustration, are you in a four-wheel drive? Are you on mountain roads or are you on a racetrack with a Ferrari? You don’t know until you, in a certain sense, get in the car. And that’s the nature of the conversation. You draw people out and find out. And so this is all part of the tactical game plan that is part of the tactics book.

Dr. Jeff Myers (08:53):
Yeah. Let’s talk about the basic, the core principles, and then we’ll see if we can apply it. I mentioned earlier something about new spiritualists, and you said those are really tough kinds of conversations, so that’s where we’re going to go with it.

Greg Koukl (09:07):
Okay, great. No pressure, Koukl.

Dr. Jeff Myers (09:10):
Well, everybody, you hear people all the time say, “Oh yeah, I believe in God.” There’s this universal sense that everything is God. People say that kind of thing, more and more they say it, or they say, “Oh yeah, I believe in Christ.”

Greg Koukl (09:24):
Or maybe I’m spiritual, but not religious.

Dr. Jeff Myers (09:26):
Christ is like, everybody can be a Christ. We’re a universal Christ kind of thing. So you’re hearing this sort of thing more and more, and I’d like to sort of look at some of the tactics and then apply it maybe in that situation.

Greg Koukl (09:38):
Okay.

Dr. Jeff Myers (09:39):
So give us the, is there a five minute version of the tactics? Strategy, game plan?

Greg Koukl (09:46):
Yeah, I can give it quite simply actually. There are a lot of different tactics in the book that are maneuvers and conversation, but it’s all built on the game plan that has its own name. And this name is The Colombo. And I named it after Lieutenant Colombo of TV Fame, which a lot of young people don’t know of, but you still catch him on Nick at night or on YouTube.

And he’s the guy who shows up at the crime scene and he looks kind of bumbling, scratching his head. He doesn’t look like he can think his way out of a wet paper bag, but then he begins asking questions in a very curious fashion, and unthreatening. And as he’s doing it, of course, he’s gathering information and getting the information that allows him to make his case. And then his questions become a little bit more pointed and pretty soon he’s got the bad guy, which in the TV show, you know who it is from the very beginning, but it’s this methodology.

(10:39):
It’s this question asking technique that is the basis of the tactical game plan. And it’s not new. I mean, you go back to Aristotle 400 years before Jesus or Socrates rather, and that’s the Socratic method. But Jesus had hundreds of questions in the gospels that he asked to move his ideas forward and to sometimes appropriately trap people who were against him and teaching falsehood.

Dr. Jeff Myers (11:10):
I’m so glad that you brought that up. I’ve heard hundreds of sermons on the teachings of Jesus. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard a single sermon on the questions of Jesus.

Greg Koukl (11:20):
Yeah. And I’m thinking when he says towards the end of his ministry, they want to know again, by what authority do you do this? He said, I’m going to ask you a question first. What was the authority of John the Baptist? From man or from God? And now he traps them because both answers are not going to work for them. And he said, “Okay, I’m not going to tell you where I get my authority.”

But then he tells a parable that does answer the question. So he is very shrewd as he’s maneuvering in those circumstances to make his point in an effective fashion. And he tells us to be shrewd as well. So the game plan is going to use questions and there are three steps to the game plan or three aspects of it. And the first kind of question we are asking is just to gather information.

(12:01):
There’s all kinds of ambiguities in people’s beliefs and in statements that they make. And so we want to get clarification. An important reason that we want to get clarification is not just so that we understand their view, which would mean we avoid misrepresenting it, which would be a straw man and that’s bad manners and it’s bad thinking. But not only for us to understand it, so it helps us to know where to go next, but we want them to understand their own view and lots of people don’t understand their own view. Yeah, it’s a great point.

And so by asking that question, by drawing them out, it forces them to articulate their view. And the model question at this stage is very simple. It’s, what do you mean by that? Now again, that’s a model question. I’ll give you some examples in a bit, but it’s not meant to be delivered in a wooden fashion.

(12:52):
You pattern the question after the circumstances that you find yourself in. Okay. But that’s the first thing. You’re just trying to figure out the lay of the land, all right? And every time people answer that question, if there are more ambiguities about their view in the way they’re explaining it, you ask more questions. And this really fleshes things out for you. And you also find out where the hotspots are or where the minds are, the landmines, or maybe where the weaknesses are. Yes. If you’ve been schooled in them like your students have been, and many of your Summit people. Okay.

So first you’re finding out what they believe. The next step is to figure out, why do they believe what they say they believe? And so this is a next step, and you’re going to require of them to shoulder the burden of proof for their own claims. And this is another question to do that. And now how did you come to that conclusion?

Dr. Jeff Myers (13:47):
Yeah.

Greg Koukl (13:47):
Why do you think your view is actually accurate or do you think it’s accurate? Do you think they’re accurate views? I mean, there’s lots of ways you could build.

Dr. Jeff Myers (13:54):
Is there such a thing as an accurate view?

Greg Koukl (13:56):
Yes, that’s right. But if they’re proselytizing their view one way or another, they must think it’s accurate enough to try to persuade other people. And so that’s kind of a crazy conundrum sometimes with people you’re talking with who don’t believe in truth in one sense, but they think their views are true and you ought to believe them instead of believing Christianity.

Dr. Jeff Myers (14:17):
And you take that question and you modulate it based on the situation. So if you’re with a friend who’s really aggressive and you like to dive in and they like to dive in, you could actually ask them, why on earth would you believe a thing like that? Sure.

Greg Koukl (14:31):
Go to the mat with them. If they’re, like you said, a friend or a personality, whatever, that can handle that kind of more aggressive treatment. Other people, you got to handle them with kid gloves, which is fine. And this approach that I’m offering, the tactical game plan, allows you to do that. It’s very, very flexible. And notice two things here. I mean, something really important about these first two steps of the game plan.

The first step being gathering information about their view. What do you mean by that? The second step being gathering information about why they think their view is worth thinking, believing. Okay. How did you come to that conclusion, kind of language? When anyone is asking the questions, they are not in the hot seat.

(15:17):
The ball goes immediately to the other person. Now, most people don’t even mind that, who you’re questioning, because they get to talk about their own views. Sure. They’re happy to do that. But the reason I mention this is because a lot of Christians don’t want to be involved in conversations because they’re afraid they’re going to get trapped. They don’t know how to answer. They don’t know how to maneuver. They’re not quick on their feet, whatever.

I said, “You don’t have to worry about that if you have a tactical approach.” You could be in the shallow end of the pool. You’re asking them all. You’re a student of their views. You’re not advancing your own view at this stage. And what I told the students, because we just did those first two steps, we didn’t have time for long. The third step, which I’ll explain in a moment.

(15:56):
But just in those first two steps, it’s amazing what God is going to do in people’s lives just by asking questions about their own view and not proselytizing your own view at the moment. There’s a place for that, and I’m not against that. This is step number three, but I still want them to use questions. And so the third step. First step is gathering information. Second step is to reverse the burden of proof on them because they’re making the claim. And the third step is you use questions to make a point.

So the point might be your own view, or the point might be exploiting a weakness or a flaw in their view. And of course, you got to know what the flaw is. That’s part of the education part. But when you know what the flaw is, instead of pointing the flaw out, now it’s confrontational. “Oh, you’re wrong because you use a question to make that flaw evident.

Dr. Jeff Myers (16:55):
Can you give an example of that? How do you use a question like that without the person feeling like they’re being cross-examined?

Greg Koukl (17:03):
Well, that’s a style issue. And this is where I think Colombo is a good example because Colombo was very gentle, seemingly inconsequential almost. You don’t have to worry about this guy kind of thing. And so this is what I encourage in interactive conversation. And like you said earlier, Jeff, some people you can be a little more aggressive with than others, but I always want to take the curious questioner kind of approach.

So let’s just say I’m talking to an atheist, let’s say. And actually I had a conversation with one of your staff just half hour ago who has an atheist friend named Adam. So I’ll just use Adam, and the issue is the broader issue of the problem of evil. So, ” Well, what about the problem of evil? “He said,” So my question is what about it? “”Well, there’s a problem, isn’t there? What exactly is the problem?” Now, I’m asking the question because I want him to explain the problem and that helps him to get a better grasp of what it happens to be.

(18:04):
And so at some point I’m going to say, “Okay, so you do believe in evil then, right?” Yeah, okay. So when you say evil, a thing is evil, you mean what? Well, now they’re actually in a very tough spot because it’s going … What is evil anyway? Well, evil is when things happen that aren’t supposed to happen or people do things that they’re not supposed to do. That’s the way people will characterize it.

But the minute they characterize it, I’m going to say, “Well, wait, now I’m confused.” Okay, so this is now my cross-examination with the gentle touch. So you say, oh, you’re not supposed to do it. No, I’m confused. What do you mean you’re confused? Adam says, and I say, Well, you’re an atheist, right? Yeah. Well, how could there be things that people are supposed to do? Who’s the supposer?

Dr. Jeff Myers (18:54):
Yeah.

Greg Koukl (18:56):
What do you mean? Well, you say somebody’s speeding, right? Yeah, they’re speeding. But you’re not just talking about velocity. Yeah, they’re going too fast. What do you mean too fast? Well, the speed limit’s 25, they’re going 40. Wait a minute. So what you’re saying is when you say they’re speeding is that they’re breaking a law. Yeah, exactly. All right, get it. I’m with you on that, Adam.

But you just said people do these bad things. Sounds like you’re saying they’re breaking a law. Where’s the law? Yeah. That’s what confuses me, Adam. You’re saying they’re breaking a law, but you’re an atheist, so where’s the law?

Dr. Jeff Myers (19:32):
Yeah.

Greg Koukl (19:33):
Now see, this is the problem with atheism because there is no basis or foundation for the kind of objective morality that needs to be in place for someone to raise the problem of evil the way they raise it. They’re not saying, “Hey, I don’t like when people do stuff to me. Who cares what you like on your view now?”

They’re saying that people do things that are actually wrong, but now they’re saying essentially, and sometimes you have to add the illustration of speeding to help them to deal with the categories, get the categories clear in their mind, but you’re essentially saying they’re breaking a law that is transcendent because it’s out there somewhere and where is that law? Laws come from law makers. So the odd thing here, and this is what I know, what I’m working on with my questions is that you can’t have morality without God.

(20:37):
Evil is evidence of morality. Morality is evidence for God. Therefore, evil is evidence for God. I mean, as odd as that sounds, that’s actually a classical argument called the moral argument for the existence of God. And I really train heavy on the problem of evil to make this point because everybody knows something’s wrong with the world, even the atheist, but it doesn’t fit their worldview.

And this is where obviously the Summit training comes in. Certain ideas are inherent with certain worldviews. They fit in this box, not in that box. Here’s the deal, this is the insight that I try to get people to grasp Christians, particularly because there’s a tool here. I call it the Inside Out Tactic. There’s a chapter in the tactic book on that. The fact is, and I get this from Francis Schaefer, every human being is made in the image of God as a matter of fact, and they have to live in the world that God made.

(21:36):
That means when they deny something about the world that God made, they are denying something about reality. And it’s a reality that they’re actually aware of even if they don’t realize the significance of their awareness. So they’re made with a moral machine inside and a conscience. They can recognize evil because God has given them the ability to do that.

(21:57):
But actual evil doesn’t fit in their worldview box. It fits in ours. So this is where, and they haven’t connected those dots yet. This is what I’m trying to do with my questions. So this is Columbia number three, a little bit advanced, but there you see. And by the way, I mean, I don’t think anybody listening to the dialogue that I just role played, I think, what this looks like, cross-examination and interrogation. I mean, I was speaking for both sides.

Dr. Jeff Myers (22:23):
But letting him respond. Conversation. You’re taking seriously what the other person says.

Greg Koukl (22:28):
Yes.

Dr. Jeff Myers (22:29):
Seriously enough that you’re trying to fill in the gaps that are left by their…

Greg Koukl (22:35):
Well, I’m connecting the dots with more questions.

Dr. Jeff Myers (22:37):
So what do you mean by that? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Greg Koukl (22:42):
That’s right.

Dr. Jeff Myers (22:42):
And then…

Greg Koukl (22:44):
The third. Then trying to use questions to make questions to make the point. No, in the role play that I offered, I was asking, what do you mean by that quite a bit? Clarifying, what do you mean by evil? Because this is key for them making the point of what evil is for me then to jump to number three and then say, that’s not going to work in your worldview. So I’m going to use questions to help him to see that.

Dr. Jeff Myers (23:06):
Yeah. Okay. All right. Let me give you a scenario. This is a real one. This is from a conversation that took place about a week and a half ago. My son and I, my youngest son just graduated high school. So we went on a scuba diving trip just to celebrate his graduation. That’s something we love to do together. One of our dives, just to kind of set the context, was at a place that was quite a ways away from where we were staying, so we had to ride in a van with our dive guide. So it’s my son, I’m there, my son and one other diver and our guide and the driver of the van.

(23:39):
So there are five of us in the van. And this guy says, and we’ve got probably 45 minutes or an hour left in the drive, he says, “You are the happiest person that I have met in who knows how long.” Something like that.

Greg Koukl (23:56):
He says it to you?

Dr. Jeff Myers (23:57):
He says that to me.

Greg Koukl (23:58):
Oh my goodness.

Dr. Jeff Myers (24:00):
And earlier in the trip when we were on the boat, I had said something about how I was in 12 months in remission from cancer and I am happy. Every day’s a gift. I don’t take any of it for granted. And we were having an extraordinary day. I mean, I was just very happy. He said, “You’re just the happiest person.” And I just said, “I’ll tell you why I’m so happy because I’m in remission from cancer, but the truth is Jesus healed me from cancer.” I just said, tossed it out there, yeah. Healed me from cancer. And I could see it in the sea, he literally went like this. And then he said.

Greg Koukl (24:44):
By the way, for those who can’t see, Jeff is rocking back, scrunching his face up, shaking his finger like the guy’s confused and doesn’t know what to do with that statement. There’s the visual for you.

Dr. Jeff Myers (24:55):
And he’s about to school me. Okay. It was that kind of look like, okay, let me tell you where you’re wrong.

Greg Koukl (25:00):
Yeah, let me set you straight.

Dr. Jeff Myers (25:02):
Let me set you straight. And he said, “Well, let me tell you how I see that.” And then he launched into his worldview, which he articulated pretty clearly, which was, look, everything is God. Everything is God. The whole universe is God. And so we’re a little bit of God and everything is a little bit of God. And he just explained his view, new spirituality. This is what we call it in the book, Understanding the Times.

Greg Koukl (25:35):
Would that be the same as New Age, what they used to call New Age Movement or something?

Dr. Jeff Myers (25:38):
Everything is one, and we’re part of that oneness, so we are God. And he was very expressive. He’s a very expressive guy, very expressive and excited about sharing that viewpoint. But it’s essentially the viewpoint that Eckhart Tolle gives that it’s God’s presence. Just put one hand here, the other hand here. And then he describes his view of the divine presence. So essentially it was Eckhart Tolle like book two, right? Yeah, right. So he’s talking about all of this. My son.

Greg Koukl (26:16):
This is actually kind of a version of Eastern religion, of monistic pantheism or something like that.

Dr. Jeff Myers (26:24):
Yeah. I’m sure he would season that view with a little bit of Hinduism. Whatever he got that sort of affirmed the idea that the universe is all one thing, there’s a oneness to it and we’re somehow part of that oneness and we need to be aware of our oneness and that’s where he was going with it.

(26:46):
All right. So I could talk about what I did in the situation, but I’d be curious if you were to be in the … Let’s say you’re in the van with us. Now there’s a sixth person in the van and the other diver, she’s so tired from the dive, she’s listening, but she’s not really paying much attention. The driver, he’s in his own little world there making sure we don’t get run off the road in Mexico, but there are now four of us in the conversation, my son, me, the dive master, and you. Help us take those questions and apply them in that situation.

Greg Koukl (27:23):
Okay. So you’ve already mentioned that he did a pretty good job of characterizing his view. So we’ll just say that the work of the first question has already been accomplished because he’s articulate and he’s carrying on. But now I’m going to, in my mind, I can already see some difficulties with this view, okay?

And when I start offering some of these model questions here or the questions pertaining to this particular, I think it’ll be pretty obvious too, but I am going to be the confused guy because actually this does confuse me a little bit. So I’m you. You’ve just told him that you’ve been recovering from cancer. And let’s give a name to the dive guy just for the sake of a conversation. What do we call him?

Dr. Jeff Myers (28:04):
Brett.

Greg Koukl (28:05):
Brett?

Dr. Jeff Myers (28:06):
Brett. Call him Brett.

Greg Koukl (28:07):
Brett. Okay. Brett. So Brett, that’s really interesting, but it kind of confuses me a little bit. Why is that? Well, so I’m God, right? Yeah, we’re all God. Why did I get cancer? I’m God and I’m sick. How does God get cancer? I don’t know how he’s going to answer that.

Dr. Jeff Myers (28:33):
Yeah.

Greg Koukl (28:33):
All right. But that would be one direction I go. So however he answered it, I’m going to kind of press that issue because this strikes me as counterintuitive. If we’re all God, well, wait a minute. I’m not going to get in detail, Brett, but I’m just going to tell you something. I’ve got a very checkered past, all right? When I look back on some of the things that I did, I am not proud of them. I’m ashamed of them. I wish I hadn’t done them.

But what you just told me is not only am I God now, but I was God then. So how am I supposed to understand these awful, ugly things that I think I did morally in light of what you just told me? Were those things bad or not? I mean, if I’m God, I don’t know what he’s going to say, but I think this is a conundrum for them because when you press the issue philosophically, if everything is God, then nothing is not God.

Dr. Jeff Myers (29:31):
Right.

Greg Koukl (29:32):
Okay. That’s classic Eastern Monism, one-ism. Okay. I talk about this a bit in the story of reality, which I think you guys carry in your library downstairs or whatever your books are. In the story of reality. Yes, we do. The story. We’ve got that in our bookstore.

Dr. Jeff Myers (29:47):
It’s on the website too.

Greg Koukl (29:49):
So I talk about this particular alternative worldview, alternative story. And the problem then is that you can’t make sense of the problem of evil. I In that view. Why? Because evil means there’s a difference between evil and good. But if everything’s one, it’s not two. And this is the natural consequence of this view. That’s right. So nothing could be evil. And then he’s going to have to tell me if he’s consistent with the view. And I don’t know how he’d carry out the details of his particular version of this.

Dr. Jeff Myers (30:25):
And he was deadly consistent with it.

Greg Koukl (30:27):
Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (30:28):
Because when I brought up the problem of evil, he said that we have to change our understanding of suffering. He kind of went with the Buddhist sort of idea.

Greg Koukl (30:39):
But the Buddhist acknowledges suffering. I mean, that’s the problem, right? So I mean, you could look at suffering and try to remove the moral content or suffering is descriptive. It’s not prescriptive. You’re not saying you’re suffering and you shouldn’t be doing that. That’s bad. You can just say you’re suffering. Just like you’re coughing and you’re snorting or you’re breathing. It’s just a description of what’s going on inside of you or you’re eating jello or something like that.

But this is where the problem is. It doesn’t matter where you lived or when you lived, everyone knows that something is really wrong with the world. And now we have a person who is telling us there’s nothing wrong with the world. You have to change your language. Excuse me?

(31:32):
Why would you countenance Auschwitz? Okay. I stayed in 1976 in the home of a Czech man who had been an inmate in Auschwitz and survived. Okay. Why would you countenance what happened there? Just for one itty bitty example. I also worked in Thailand with Cambodian refugees who survived the Cambodian Holocaust under Pulpot and the Camaro Rouge. The kinds of things that children told me happened. And so I’d relate some of these. Now why would, tell me, please help me understand, Brett. Brad, whatever. Why would you say that my language of evil and wickedness is the wrong language to use to describe that?

Dr. Jeff Myers (32:15):
Yeah.

Greg Koukl (32:15):
Now, if he’s going to just press the issue, then this is where I’m going to be incredulous. Really? Are you suggesting that the way you look at the world is superior somehow because you turn a blind eye to the moral quality of the unjust suffering in the world. So notice that’s a question. Now it’s back at his court. Now he’s going to have to explain to me why this is superior and why, even though it’s a radical violation of moral common sense, it’s the right view. And maybe that’s the next question I would ask him. Why would you think that’s the accurate way of looking at it? So notice in this case, I’m getting a little bit more aggressive because this view is barbaric.

Dr. Jeff Myers (33:07):
Yes.

Greg Koukl (33:08):
Now I’m not trying to be mean to him, but I want him to feel the force of that. And this is what Francis Shaffer did. This is called taking the roof off. And Francis Shaffer did the same thing. And he wants people to feel the force of the cold wind blowing, take the roof off so they feel how bad their worldview actually is. And then hopefully that will get them thinking that will, as I put it, put a stone in their shoe. I’m not looking to close the deal. I’m not looking to pray to receive Christ with this guy. That’s a long way off for him. Just like it was, I became a Christian as an adult. It took me a long time. And so I’m just trying to get him thinking.

Dr. Jeff Myers (33:48):
Yeah.

Greg Koukl (33:48):
And that’s my goal with these questions. But there’s an example of how that worked. I’ll tell you about another conversation I had though, and this was much simpler actually with a new ager. I mean, this is the way I would characterize it. What did you call it? New spirituality.

Dr. Jeff Myers (33:59):
I said new spiritualists. That’s the worldview category that we use in Understanding the Times.

Greg Koukl (34:04):
Okay. So I’m doing an event. This is two years ago in Seattle. I had worked Friday night, all day Saturday, some other speakers too, but I was really tired. Sunday morning, I’m getting up to leave the hotel. I got my roller bag and I’m going to grab a quick breakfast. It’s really early. I got two events that afternoon, speaking at a church that morning and doing the sermon, whatever.

But I think you probably know this. I’m not a morning person. It takes me a long time to wake up. My stock line is before my first cup of coffee. I’m an atheist. So I’m sitting down to get my first cup of coffee, to get my scrambled eggs and a piece of toast. And I do not want to talk about Jesus. I don’t want to talk about God. I don’t want to talk at all.

(34:45):
And the waitress, God bless her heart, comes up and she is much too energetic for me at that time in the morning. Hello. She had a headstart with her copy. Why are you in Seattle? And I thought, oh, I just want to get rid of her. And I say, and I think, okay, I’ll tell her. I’m going to preach in a church in an hour. And I figured that would get rid of her, right? And then she said, “Oh, that’s great.” Okay.

Now remember the first Colombo question is, what do you mean by that? So you’re gathering information about what people mean by what they say. She tells me it’s great that I’m … I said, “Why is it great? Are you a Christian?” That was my first thought. Maybe she’s a Christian. But that’s just a version of that first question, but I’m not thinking about witnessing.

(35:32):
I can’t help myself. I don’t understand why she says this, so I’m just asking her. “Oh no, I’m not a Christian.” She says, “I used to be, but now I’m not anymore.” Now, she says, “The universe takes care of me.” That’s what she said. Okay. Okay. So I’m thinking, huh? What does that mean? Because I don’t know what it means, but I don’t say it to her like that. But I do ask the question. I said, “Really? Is the universe a person?” She said, “No.” Well, then how can the universe take care of you? No, what do you mean?

But again, I’m just trying to make sense of what, I’m not trying to witness. I don’t want to witness. Okay. But I asked the question and she goes, she’s thinking, “Okay, well, I guess God takes care of me.” I said, “Oh, okay. So God takes care of it.” And then she says, “God is the universe.”

(36:26):
Here you go. And then I’m thinking, huh? What’s that all about? But I asked her, “How could God be the universe?” And so then she explains and she continues. One of the things with this new spirituality, whatever, is that there’s a lack of coherence. They say these things that sound spiritual, but it’s hard to figure out what they actually mean. And so I’m just probing to get meaning. So what I’m asking her, she’s answering questions and not really coming up with answers that make any sense to me. And I’m asking more questions just casually.

(37:01):
I’m not cross-examining. I’m just trying to figure it out. And actually deep down inside, I want her to go away, but I can’t help myself and ask this question. And finally, as far as I could tell, there’s not a single thing that I have said that phases her in the least. She takes my order, she walks away, and she’s gone. Okay, good. I’m by myself. I get my eggs and whatever.

And then towards the end of my meal, she comes back to my table and here’s what she says as God is my witness, she said, “You know what? Nobody has ever asked me any questions about my view before.” Wow. And then she said, “And it got me thinking.” Got me thinking. Yeah. Which is, this is my goal. That’s the stone in the shoe kind of thing. Now keep in mind, I wasn’t even trying.

(37:46):
And I was just using the very first step of Colombo reflexively, kind of to get rid of her, but trying to figure out what’s going on. And what I said, because I had to go, and I said, “Well, if we had more time, I could ask you more questions, you could do more thinking,” is what I said, kind of jokingly with her. But I happened to have a copy of the story of reality in my bag, and I always carry a copy so I can give it away as a fairly thick, tracked kind of thing.

Dr. Jeff Myers (38:11):
Well, but it’s a great book for that purpose because anybody can read it no matter what their worldview commitments are. That’s true. And you can sign it over to them and hand that to somebody. Do you like to read? Yes, I like to read.

Greg Koukl (38:26):
That’s what I asked her.

Dr. Jeff Myers (38:26):
Take a look at this.

Greg Koukl (38:27):
Exactly. And I said, “If I gave you a book, would you read it?” And then I said, “By the way, if you say no, I’m fine. You won’t hurt my feelings.” She says, “No, I’d like to read it.” So I gave you the book and then I mentioned, I said, I was the author of the book and then she really got all googly-eyed and so I signed off for her. So now I guarantee she’s going to read it. And that was the end of that.

But what I think is so good about that anecdote is that it shows how simple it was for me to use the tactical approach and all I was doing was using the first maneuver, the first question to gather more information and I didn’t even want to witness. Yet God still used that in her life and got her thinking, which then gave me an opportunity to leave something with her and maybe have a longer term impact on her life. But this is what I tell people, even if you just, excuse me, start doing that, you will be amazed even at the baby steps, how the Holy Spirit is going to use that. And it’s not hard. It’s easy.

Dr. Jeff Myers (39:25):
Yeah, that’s good. Well, I love that. I think that’s a great illustration. That’s a perfect way to end the show. I think I always look for that at the end of a conversation. You’ve really got me thinking. And that’s what of course this dive guide said as we got off the van. You really got me thinking.

(39:43):
Thank you to my guest, Greg Koukl for coming on the show today. You can find Greg’s resources at str.org. What a simple website. Would that we all had such a simple way to have people reach out to us, str.org. The Apostle Peter reminds us to have the ability to give reasons to everyone who asks us for the hope that we have and to do it with gentleness and respect.

I think you could see how Greg Koukl does that, how he trains other people to do it. He’s a key part of our Summit Ministries team and the people he’s trained are also a key part of our team. We need knowledge, but we need character as well. Both of those things are going to be important as we communicate truth with others. Thanks for joining. I’ll see you next week.

Ryan Dobson (40:31):
Thanks for listening to the Dr. Jeff Show. And don’t forget, you can help a child attend Summit summer session by going to summit.org/match. All your donations that are tax deductible will be doubled. God bless, have a great week, and we’ll see you next time for another Dr. Jeff Show.

Dr. Jeff Myers (40:49):
Listeners, I want you to know that our podcast is on Edifi, which is a truly powerful app that brings together thousands of the best Christian podcasts in one place. For your listening enjoyment, you can download it at edifi.app. Be sure to share this show if you have enjoyed listening to it and leave a review, if you would, on the site where you download the show. That helps more people know about the Dr. Jeff Show, and I look forward to seeing you next week.