The Dr. Jeff Show Ep. 74 – Jenna Ellis

Episode 74: Summary & Transcript

Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Dr. Jeff Show, host Dr. Jeff interviews Jenna Ellis, a constitutional attorney and former senior legal advisor to President Trump, live in front of Summit Ministries students. The interview covers Ellis’ journey from attending Summit at age 16 to her high-profile legal career, including her unexpected recruitment by President Trump through a phone call that led to her role as senior legal advisor.

Ellis shares personal anecdotes about Trump’s character and their working relationship, including touching moments with her father at White House events. The interview addresses the personal costs of public leadership, including death threats, legal challenges, and ongoing attacks she faces for her advocacy. Ellis concludes by encouraging students to have faith and courage in pursuing their calling despite inevitable challenges.

Episode Transcript

Ryan Dobson (00:00):
Hi everyone. Ryan Dobson here for the Dr. Jeff Show. Summit camps are in full swing and kids are having a blast. In fact, my own son Lincoln is attending right now. There are so many kids who want to go to camp at Summit, but they just need a little help. A generous donor has agreed to match every donation to the Summit summer programs. Will you help a child learn the foundations of a Christian worldview at Summit? Donate online at summit.org/match and every tax-free donation will be doubled. Again, you can find that at summit.org/match. God bless, and let’s join the Dr. Jeff Show.

Dr. Jeff Myers (00:39):
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show podcast. This show’s available on Apple, Google, Spotify, Liftable, Edifi, or wherever you get your podcast. If you would do me a favor and go to the site wherever it happens to be where you get your podcast and review the show. If you give it a positive review, more people find out about it. And that’s important because this is the show where I interview major thought leaders to show how our worldview changes everything.

This week’s going to be a little bit different because I’m interviewing Jenna Ellis live in front of the students at a Summit Ministries summer session. You may have seen Jenna on television. She is a newsmax contributor and the former senior legal advisor and counsel to President Trump. She’s also the host of her own radio show and her own podcast. Please welcome Jenna Ellis to the show.

(01:32):
Okay. Well, welcome to Summit and I want to say a special welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show podcast audience as well and introduce you all to Jen Ellis, who’s a constitutional attorney and the former senior counsel and personal counsel for President Donald Trump.

Jenna Ellis (01:51):
Yes.

Dr. Jeff Myers (01:52):
And a Summit Ministries graduate.

Jenna Ellis (01:54):
Yes, that’s the most important thing actually, because it all started there.

Dr. Jeff Myers (01:57):
It all started at Summit, and we’re going to get into that a little bit because what you’ve been able to do with the training that you received in a biblical worldview is really exciting. And for a lot of the students who are here thinking, I might want to go into leadership. I might actually feel a call to do that, to make a difference. You’ve been able to demonstrate what that’s like and what’s great about it, what’s exciting about it, how to get there, what’s tough about it, how you have to make difficult decisions when you’re in the public eye and you have critics who are extremely mean. So all of that we’re going to get into in the time we have tonight.

Jenna Ellis (02:42):
Well, thank you so much for having me and it’s great to be back at Summit. So I was a Summit student when I was 16 and that was such an amazing experience. So you all are very, very blessed to be here.

Dr. Jeff Myers (02:53):
Well, let’s first of all talk about being an attorney. And raise of hands real quickly if you think going into the legal profession is something you might be interested in. All right. So there are a few of you. All right? Great. So you early on in your life thought this might be a calling for you. Tell us that story.

Jenna Ellis (03:13):
Yes. So I was homeschooled all the way through. Anyone here homeschooled? Woo. All right. Lots of hands. That’s awesome. That’s actually where it begins. And I was very blessed to have parents that homeschooled me, kindergarten all the way through. And so I was able to attend a leadership school called Teen Pact, which there’s a few of you guys here as well. Yeah.

And so through that program, I discovered really my love of law and the philosophy of law at age 14. And I’ve realized that you are never too young for God to show you your life’s calling. And even though my life’s trajectory and what God has done with the passion and skillset that he gave me and that I’ve developed, I had no idea where he would lead with that. But yeah, at age 14, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer and never strayed from that course, but God definitely had his own plan.

(04:08):
So then went to Summit at age 16 and continued to develop my faith and an understanding of the biblical worldview and then went to law school, which as you will discover, if you go to law school, law is taught completely antithetical to the Christian worldview, unless you go somewhere like Liberty University, like Regent University, there are a few that do teach from a Christian worldview perspective and the truth as ultimately the source of law. But generally speaking, in most law schools, including mine, law is taught as completely arbitrary.

And so whatever the sovereign in any particular nation decides to set up as the rule of law, there is no real standard of morality. So here in the United States, whatever our legislatures, Congress or on the state level decide to implement, it is a social contract theory which is actually based and rooted in secular humanism.

(05:06):
And the idea that if we collectively, let’s say that we were the Congress right now, and we decided collectively to legislate that abortion is legal and okay, then we have the authority to do that. And so law is taught as completely arbitrary and morality is a subset of that. And of course, that clashed with what I had learned at Summit, what I knew from the truth of the Bible, what I knew from the truth that my parents through homeschooling my church had taught me.

And so I had to reconcile those two competing worldviews and determine, how do I become an advocate in the law, but do that from a truthful, correct perspective that God ultimately is the divine law giver and morality is a part of his law. And just as we cannot as a Congress legislate ourselves out of the earth’s orbit or decide that we want to repeal the law of gravity, we just don’t have that power as human beings and neither do we have the authority or the legitimacy in the law to draw or redraw moral boundaries that God has set.

(06:18):
And so even if we have a judicial branch that in 1973 said, yeah, a woman has a so- called right to choose to kill her child willfully, intentionally through a medical intervention, that was no more moral and lawful and permissible according to God’s law in 1973 than it will be on the state level when hopefully here in a matter of days or weeks, Roe versus Wade is overturned.

Dr. Jeff Myers (06:45):
Yes. So we’re recording this and having this conversation in June of 2022 and so much has changed since the time you came to Summit, but so much remains the same. And I thought that was really interesting the way you identified that what was being taught in your law school was a secular worldview. And of course, coming to Summit helps you figure out, “Oh, I can see sort of where the battle lines are. I can see the patterns of ideas.”

But you actually did something about it and I’m really curious to hear how you went beyond where a lot of Christians are, which is, “I don’t think this is quite right to, well, I’ve got to think this all through and somehow figure it out.”

Jenna Ellis (07:31):
Yeah. And reconcile, what do I truly believe the Bible teaches and what is the truth? Because Summit will teach you and worldview training will teach you to spot those issues. And most Christians wouldn’t even see the conflict. There are so many Christian lawyers who will go and actually advocate under a secular humanist theory and they don’t even know they’re doing it.

And so I studied for the next probably four years and through law school and beyond and wanted to have a comprehensive argument that answered that question of how can I go into a courtroom? How can I go into Congress and advocate for moral objectivity in law without having to say, “Well, first become a Christian, then believe as I believe.” I wanted to have a legal argument. And so I pursued that. I ultimately wrote a book, which was actually my dad’s idea, and I’ll give credit on, and we’re taping this on Father’s Day.

Dr. Jeff Myers (08:33):
We’re taping this on Father’s day.

Jenna Ellis (08:34):
Which I got to have lunch with my dad earlier today. And I’d been talking to my parents about this and he said, “You’ve been talking for several years about writing a book and I think you should do that.” And so I ultimately wrote my argument and I called it the legal basis for a moral constitution. And it’s a guide for Christians to understand America’s constitutional crisis and put our legal documents, our declaration and our constitution in context.

Because what I discovered through that research is that we don’t just have an argument for the truth of biblical Christianity. We have the only argument that is internally consistent and as C.S. Lewis would describe it, the best explanation for the reality to which God presents us. And I wanted to share that with my fellow Americans in the world and fellow Christians so that you can advocate as much as I can as fellow Christians for the truth of the law and also why I’m so proud to be an American because I could make this same argument in any time, place, nation, and history.

But America is so unique because we were actually founded on the truth and our founders recognizing, not putting their own standard of morality up for debate, but saying we will recognize that truth is self-evident and our rights come from God, our creator, not our government, and the sole legitimate purpose of government is to preserve and protect those rights that God gives us.

(10:08):
And so we have a beautiful worldview statement in our Declaration of Independence and that’s what our entire system of government is founded upon. And if anyone wants to change that, they would literally have to upend and refound our country. Otherwise, they’re simply negating and ignoring and trying to tear down our Constitution, which is what every other worldview in this country is trying to do. And that’s how we are founded in a very brief preview of the book, how we are founded as a Christian nation because it was the Judeo-Christian values and recognition of God as self-evident truth and the personification of truth.

Dr. Jeff Myers (10:51):
Yeah. And you see a lot of Summit reflected in the book. I remember when I read it, I think when it first came out, just realizing, oh, this is Summit ideas applied to the field of law. So you had a fast start when you got out of law school, you not only wrote a book, but you also were practicing law. You were also teaching at Colorado Christian University and coaching the mock trial team. Tell us a little bit about those early years in your career.

Jenna Ellis (11:24):
Yeah. So I decided that I wanted to be a prosecutor through some events in my life. And I was actually a victim of sexual assault at the age of 17. I went through due process and I went through, kind of a crisis of faith at that point to reconcile, okay, what do I believe about the truth of who I am as made in the image of God and what do I believe about due process and those things. And my parents, of course, were very supportive, went through all of that and I determined going into law for the purpose of being a prosecutor and pursuing truth and justice was a very high calling.

So I started out doing that and ultimately realized there’s a lot of politics involved, unfortunately. And so ended up a very paradigm shift that was very fascinating and really a huge time of growth for me was then actually becoming a defense attorney and going on the other side and actually seeing that there’s a huge ministry as well on that side and being a defense attorney.

(12:30):
And being a defense attorney allowed me to have more time to study writing the book and then ultimately accept a position at Colorado Christian University to teach. And that was through, if any of you are familiar with Mike Ferris, he used to be, he was the founder of the Homeschool Legal Defense Association.

I reached out to him literally just on Facebook and was like, “You won’t remember me, but I was a homeschool, high school student and I took your Khan law class years ago online in high school. And I wrote this book and I would love for you to read it, tell me what you think of it and if you’re willing to write the forward.” And he was so kind. He actually set up a phone call and I was so nervous because I was like, “This is like talking to Batman or something because he’s just like the legal superhero, right?” And he was so kind.

(13:16):
He ended up writing the forward to my book and gave me what I consider one of the greatest compliments of my ministry, which was to say that this is one of the finest defenses of Christian legal theory of our era in the book. And he then took me under his wing and was a mentor. And I encourage all of you, get a mentor and whatever you want to do, there’s somebody who is 10, 20 steps ahead and they will love to help champion you. And Mike Ferris has been that for me.

And he ultimately introduced me to, then, the president of Colorado Christian University who asked me a very interesting question. I went in just to talk to him about the Moot Court team. I thought it was going to be 15 minutes. He’s the president of the university, super busy. I had my little presentation, everything, and he’s like, “Okay, but set that aside for a second, Jenna. I want to ask you a different question. First you were born, now you’re in my office. Tell me what happened in between.” And I’m like, “Well, how much time do you have? ” And he said, “I have as much time as you’ll give me.”

An hour and a half later, a lot of tears, a lot of bonding. I mean, President Armstrong was an amazing, amazing man. He looked at me and he said, “Jenna, I can see that God has an amazing purpose for your life. And I believe that Colorado Christian University is going to be part of that purpose for the Lord. And I want you to come and teach here full-time because I think that your life story and your passion for law can really influence our students.” And without any training, any idea what I was walking into, I said, “Absolutely.” And that changed the trajectory of a lot of things.

(14:54):
I became a fellow at the Centennial Institute and through teaching had the ability then to start doing media and start promoting my book more, but then also commenting on law and current events from the perspective, not just of the Constitution, but then also where I could weave in the Christian worldview. And just one door led to another and God continued to just establish my steps, as Proverbs says, and the Psalms say as well.

And one thing led to another and I was all of a sudden on national media on Fox News, got a call from the Trump campaign saying, “We would love for you to be one of our national surrogates as an attorney because you speak very well in the law.” And at that point, the president had already been elected, he was already in office. And I said, “Absolutely. I would love to do this on a national level.” And that was an amazing experience. And I was thinking, how much better can this get? Until one day I got a very interesting phone call.

Dr. Jeff Myers (15:59):
So you had a phone call, you were in Oregon and you got a phone call from the 202 area code, which is Washington DC.

Jenna Ellis (16:07):
And I’m a Colorado girl. All of you out here, you know, we’re 303 people. So yeah, 202 I’m like, this has got to be a sales call. It’s Sunday afternoon.

Dr. Jeff Myers (16:15):
So you just let it go to voicemail.

Jenna Ellis (16:17):
Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (16:18):
But you listened to the voicemail.

Jenna Ellis (16:20):
Thankfully, yes.

Dr. Jeff Myers (16:22):
What did it say?

Jenna Ellis (16:23):
And I listened to the voicemail and it said, there was a gentleman’s voice that said, “Hi, Ms. Ellis. This is the White House operator. The president is reaching out to you. Would you please return his phone call at your earliest convenience?” And I thought, “This cannot be right.” And if you’ve ever seen the movie, the American President with Annette Benning and Michael Douglas, she’s a lobbyist who goes in and meets with the president and then he calls her later, just out of the blue and she thinks it’s a colleague that’s just messing with her.

And I had this flashback to this movie going, “This is a deja vu moment. This cannot actually be the president reaching out to me. ” But it was. And so I called back and I said, “Hi, I’m not sure this message was meant for me, but oh yes, we’ll put you right through.”

(17:06):
Can you hold on? Absolutely. So then the White House operator says, “All right, Ms. Ellis, the president.” “Jenna, hi, how’s it going?” And, “Well, hi, Mr. President. Great. This is an honor. How are you?” “Yeah, I see you on TV all the time and you have this big, beautiful title, constitutional law attorney. I love it. It’s huge.” And totally Trump, totally Trump. And I just said, “Well, that’s great.” He’s like, “Yeah, so I wanted to ask you a few questions.”

And I thought, “Well, this is the only time I’ll get to talk to the president of the United States. So like a good lawyer, I’m going to tell him what I actually think.” Which if you know Donald Trump was probably the best way to handle that, which I didn’t know at the time, but about an hour later and he asked me so many things on that call, we talked about his love of the Constitution of this great country and so many other things.

(18:03):
He said, “Well, come see me, come see me. When are you next in DC?” “Well, anytime that you say, Mr. President, I will be there.” So that was a Sunday. The following Wednesday, I walk into the Oval Office and I’m thinking as a student of the law loving American history and loving our constitution is like, “There’s the resolute desk. This is the Oval Office. This is amazing.”

Dr. Jeff Myers (18:28):
I just think that’s hysterical. You’re meeting with the President of the United States and you notice the desk.

Jenna Ellis (18:34):
Yeah. Well, I’m kind of a nerd. The homeschooler says.

Dr. Jeff Myers (18:36):
So the resolute desk. Yeah.

Jenna Ellis (18:38):
So I noticed the desk first.

Dr. Jeff Myers (18:40):
So it was made out of ship timbers. I don’t remember the exact history of it, but there’s a powerful historical connection.

Jenna Ellis (18:48):
Yeah, Nicholas Cage can explain that later from National Treasure. Or is it the second movie? So then the president gets up from behind his desk and he comes over and he says, “Jenna, so great to meet you. You’re a brilliant lawyer and you work for me now.” And flashback to President Armstrong.

(19:09):
And how God continued to just open doors in my life and say, I’m going to take your 10 year plan because I’m a type A person and say, “Yeah, you think you know what you want to do in life, but I have a plan that’s so much greater that if you will just trust me, you have no idea where the deep end is that I’m going to throw you.” And so I just looked at me and said, “And you work for me now.” I think I said something like, “Okay.” And then that was it. And it was amazing.

And so we talked for the next, I was probably in his office for several hours. People came in and out and I was going up that afternoon to New York to do an onset interview with Fox News and he called me later that night after we had settled some things in terms of what role I would actually take on and he said, “Okay, so you got that all settled out and everything.”

(20:01):
All right, great. He’s like, “Well, so let me ask you, have you ever been to a rally?” And I was like, “No, but they look so amazing.” He goes, “Oh yeah, well, we’re going tomorrow. You should come back to DC. We have room on the plane.” And I’m like, the plane.

Dr. Jeff Myers (20:14):
The plane.

Jenna Ellis (20:14):
Yeah. The plane, yeah. So first day on the job, I’m driven to Andrew’s Air Force Base with a secret service agent and there’s the plane and it’s Air Force One. And I get on and I’m like, “Can I take pictures?” And he’s laughing at me and I’m like, “How cool is this? Do you ever get tired of seeing this?” And he’s like, “No, it’s pretty awesome.”

So we get on and he had seated me in the conference room with the entire Louisiana congressional delegation who all looked at me and I’m like, “Hi, what are you all doing here?” And Trump comes in, he says, “Have you met my lawyer? She’s awesome.” And just had an amazing first trip and met providentially some people there in Congress who are still some of my best friends today, Congressman Mike Johnson, who is one of the strongest Christians on Capitol Hill and met him that day and he has been an amazing mentor of mine as well.

Dr. Jeff Myers (21:08):
Wow. Well, this is an incredible trajectory. Now you’re working for the president through the campaign and you’re representing him. He wanted you to represent his campaign from a constitutional law perspective on television. So there was something specific and he wanted you to take advantage of the media experience that you had, but also get you out there to speak the truth that you had written about in a book just a few years before.

Jenna Ellis (21:45):
Yeah, which was incredible because here I was as someone who, just a girl from Colorado who loves this country, loves the law, and from a very young age as well, from age 14, and even earlier than that, my parents also, we read through the Bible every year in homeschooling. So by the time I graduated, I had read through the Bible at least 12 times, understood what the stories were in context because these are people who lived in different times, but faced the very same worldview challenges of their day.

And so the prophet Isaiah, who was looking around at his culture and his day, and he heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Who will I send? Who will go for us?” Basically to be a culture warrior at the time and obviously a prophet. And he said, “Here I am, Lord, send me.” And I had always prayed that prayer and said, “Lord, make me like Isaiah that has the courage in the midst of everything that is wrong with the culture,” and you’re looking around and saying, why aren’t more Christians standing up?

(22:53):
I want to be the one to say, “Here I am, Lord, send me.” And that had always been my prayer and God answered that and continues to answer that in some really incredible ways, but not without challenges as well because as much as this was a crazy trajectory and here I was, when I walked out of the White House that day, my first call was to my dad because he knew I was in the Oval Office and he was like, “Well, how’d it go?” And I said, “I think he hired me.” And it was an incredible thing to represent the most powerful man in the world at a very critical time that was leading up to the first impeachment.

And so ultimately what I did as part of the then legal team was to coordinate the legal strategy with all of the television media and the people who were talking about it and explaining what his case was and going on during commercial breaks with the hearing, explaining the law, explaining that, but also having the really unique opportunity to work for someone like President Trump who never ever said, “But you can’t talk about God or you can’t talk about faith or you can’t at all.”

(24:07):
And so whenever the opportunity presented itself, I would always try to incorporate the biblical worldview perspective, the faith-based perspective. I became part of the evangelical team as well and had some opportunities to tell everyone and to frame my role as a very high profile Christian in his circle or in Trump world. And that has really incredibly opened doors as well that I’ve had so many people contact me saying, “We’ve listened to things that you’ve said. I’ve sought more after hearing something and that led me back to the church or that led me to Christ.” So just the ripple effect has really been truly amazing.

Dr. Jeff Myers (24:56):
Some of the things that you and he talked about in that first meeting, he began to talk about immediately. I mean, he even asked questions that I don’t think most people would ask like, “What do you think of my other attorneys?” How do you answer that?

Jenna Ellis (25:12):
Honestly, and at that point, I didn’t work for him. I thought it was going to be the only time I’d ever get to talk to him. So I answered it honestly and I continued to do that. And that caused, honestly, a lot of internal friction with some of my other colleagues, whether it was in the administration in the White House or on the campaign side of things.

For example, if I would speak out against the LGBT agenda and say, I would get a call from someone at the campaign saying, “Well, we don’t want to offend XYZ.” And I said, “Well, I’m on the evangelical advisory board. I am a Christian and I’m not going to affirm that.” And so no. And basically my response always was, “And if you really want to argue with me, let’s go talk to him. You want to get him on the phone?” Because I worked directly and reported directly to President Trump.

(26:01):
And at that point they would always back down and be like, “Well, just tone it down a little bit.” And I’m like, “Yeah, right.” And one of the other great things about President Trump was that for the first probably at least three weeks, he had me send him the schedule of every single time I was on any national media interview. And as I was walking off set, I got a phone call from him and he said, “Great job. You did this really well. And next time you get this question, here’s what you can do better.”

And that was truly amazing to have somebody, I mean, obviously that high profile have personal training and really know that he was invested in his team. And he was also very personally invested because once the COVID pandemic happened, the first 15 days of slow the spread and all of that, the first two phone calls that I got saying, “Are you okay? Do you need anything?” Was my dad and the president of the United States and that’s the kind of person that he is.

Dr. Jeff Myers (27:02):
Wow. Tell us a little bit more about that because I think a lot of people’s understanding of President Trump or any president for that matter is filtered through the national media and they don’t, because they don’t really know, but they don’t communicate what people who are close to the president actually think about him. So I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit about what President Trump was like and the interactions that you had with him personally that might give us a little understanding.

Jenna Ellis (27:41):
Well, the media doesn’t want to get to know him. They don’t want to humanize him. They have an agenda and there’s a lot of bias there. And so even these great stories, they didn’t want to amplify. And so many of the people, I agree with a few of my colleagues there who say that he was the most underserved president by his own team. Unfortunately, there were some who were constantly working against him and trying to frame him in the worst possible light.

And the truth of the matter is that he was the nicest, most hilarious person I’ve ever met. I still call him a friend, which is amazing. Speaking of Father’s Day, the first year, one of my favorite stories of him is the first year I was working for him, I was invited to the White House Christmas party and about a week before he was talking to me and asking if I was coming, he said, “Well, are you coming with somebody? I don’t want you to have to come by yourself.”

(28:37):
And I said, “Yeah, my dad’s coming out from Colorado actually, and he’s only been on the regular tour. So this is really exciting.” And he’s like, “Okay, well that’s great.” And I’m thinking nothing of that. And my dad and I get there and I’m giving him the whole tour and it’s amazing.

And in fact, today for Father’s Day, I posted a picture of me and my dad outside the White House. We’re going into that event. So moments after that photograph was taken, we walk inside and I get a call from the social secretary and she says, “The president has requested to meet your father.” So we were escorted downstairs to the diplomatic room and it was just us. And my dad, of course, is like going, “I didn’t come here knowing this is going to happen. What do I say?”

(29:19):
And I was like, “Well, just be like, make America great again. It’s fine. He’ll talk.” And then he just was like, “Okay.” And he’s like, “I’m glad I wore my red tie because that’s like Trump and he wore the pen, the American flagpin. It was great.” And so the president comes in and I was like, “Mr. President, this is my dad, Dave.” And he’s like, “Hi.” And then he shakes his hand and he goes, “Dave, you’re a really good looking guy.”

And my dad is an engineer and he’s such a teddy bear, but I mean, I think he’s a little bit stunned, like that’s the first response. It’s so Trump. And he’s like, “Oh, well, thanks.” And then Trump goes, “Yeah.” And he goes, “But I wanted to meet you because I wanted to tell you something.” And as he’s shaking his hand, gripping my dad’s shoulder.

(30:01):
He looks him straight in the face and he said, “I wanted to tell you from one father to another that I am so proud of your daughter.” Wow. I know. It’s an awe moment. And my dad got tears in his eyes. And again, that flashback to age 14, when I came home from Teen Pact and said, “Mom and dad, I know that my calling from the Lord is to be a lawyer.” And my dad has always supported and championed, so is my mom, my law, not career, but ministry, truly.

And both my parents have reiterated what we teach here at Summit, which is that vocation is not the same thing as a career. You can have a career with aptitude, making money, other things, but your vocation is when your skillset and your passion meets your calling from the Lord. And to see the fulfillment of so much of what I knew that God was calling me to do, having the courage and probably the complete naivete of praying that prayer saying, “Here I am, Lord, send me.”

(31:06):
And then having the president of the United States tell my father, “I am so proud of your daughter.” That was a truly remarkable moment. And my dad, framed in his office now is a photo that we all took together that says, “Today, a great daughter,” signed by the president. And that moment was very key.

And then there was one other one as well. This was a few weeks after the initial shutdown and nobody’s going anywhere. Everyone is still wondering what really is COVID-19 and how serious is this? And I was out in DC still because that was my job. And so, still talking with my parents long distance. And I get a call from the chief of staff at the time saying, “Come into the oval with the president.” So I came in not knowing what he wanted, which happened frequently. And so I went in and just spent probably four hours with, a few other people were there.

(32:02):
And we drank Diet Cokes out of the presidential glasses and just sat there and talked. And then took care of some business as well. And as I was leaving, the chief of staff escorted me out and we were walking along the portico by the Rose Garden in the White House. And he said to me, “Well, thank you so much, Jennifer, coming over tonight because he’s always in such a great mood when he gets to spend time with his friends.”

And I thought to myself, “How did this happen, Lord? How in the world does the President of the United States first know who I am and call me his friend?” And then I thought, how much more should I be marveling every day that the Bible tells us that God, the creator of the universe, literally the most powerful person in the universe, knows us by name and calls us his friend.

(33:00):
And as much as I was an advocate and a spokesperson, a representative, an ambassador for the president of the United States, and that responsibility was tough. Every single thing I would do, every single thing I would say, even still everything I say, I am always with a very keen awareness that this reflects him. And that also taught me very, very deeply and personally that as a Christian, as an ambassador for Christ, everything I do is a reflection to a sinful world of the truth that I have to testify to. I have to be willing to every day speak and live the truth of ultimately God who calls us friend.

And in that moment, I was very convicted, saying, as much as I’m taking care to make sure that I am best representing Donald Trump and the President of the United States in his amazing office, how much more should I take here to represent my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

Dr. Jeff Myers (34:10):
That’s so powerful because scripture does call us ambassadors and that we are always representing the Lord in the things that we do. Speaking of representing the Lord, you had some interesting interactions with the president related to his faith because a lot of people have talked about this. Is President Trump a Christian? Is he a real Christian or is he just trying to pander to evangelicals and all those kinds of things? Tell us a little bit about some of your conversations.

Jenna Ellis (34:42):
Yeah. And there are a few that I’ll share in different times. And he gets so much heat of, oh, he isn’t really a Christian, this and that and the other. And a lot of what I find really interesting is a lot of the behavior that people point out, I love to point out, well, wasn’t he a registered Democrat at the time and people change, right? And how much more can we change when we choose to acknowledge Jesus as our Lord and Savior?

And we all are daily working out our faith and becoming hopefully a daily conformed to the image of Christ. And the one great thing about, well, among many things about our founders is that they didn’t establish themselves as the perfect reflection of truth or the standard, their life. So many people like to point out, well, they weren’t perfect, sincere evangelical Christians.

(35:39):
Well, how many people could look at things in my life and say, “Jenna, you’re not doing exactly what you should and they would be right.” And thankfully, we should all have people in our lives that call us out on those things, but that’s not the standard. The standard ultimately is God and that we are conformed daily to the image of Christ.

And one of the most profound conversations I had with the president that really showed me who he is beyond loving when people would pray for him and having such a great connection with the faith-based community just around the country. One of the significant conversations was when I represented Pastor John MacArthur during the COVID shutdowns. And he was one who stood firm in saying that church is essential. And we are called by scripture to be the church and to meet together as the ecclesia.

(36:38):
And he was willing literally to go to prison for his faith. And his response when he was asked by an interviewer and they said, “Well, LA County is coming at you and they are saying that if you don’t stop holding in-person services, they’re going to arrest you and take you to jail.” And his response, and he was, I believe, 82 at the time, somewhere in there. And he said, “Well, then I’ll have a prison ministry. I’ve never had one of those. That’d be fun.” Wow.

Dr. Jeff Myers (37:11):
Wow.

Jenna Ellis (37:11):
And he truly understood that and what it meant to live out his faith and trust in the Lord’s sovereignty. And so one of the most amazing conversations was when I was there in California talking with him, the president called me about something else and I spoke to him for a few minutes and I said, “I’m actually here with a good friend of yours, Pastor John MacArthur.” And I said, “He’d love to say hi.”

And so I put this on speakerphone and I thought, what a bizarre experience to introduce Donald Trump to John MacArthur and have them talk about the importance of the church and religious liberty in this country and love of the Lord. And that just told me how much the media spends so much and you can’t trust the bias of people. You have to look beyond that and you also have to know that it is always our heart and God says only he can judge the heart.

(38:16):
And of course we can be discerning Christians and we need to judge the theology and be discerning, but what I saw of President Trump was so completely different from how the mainstream media portrays him, and still do. And I still talk with him regularly and he’s still one of the kindest and funniest people I know.

Dr. Jeff Myers (38:40):
Jenna, one of the things about leadership is that when you stand up, you’re also open to attack. And I think a lot of people see you on television, “Oh, isn’t that exciting?” Millions of people saw that interview with Tucker Carlson or whoever, and then they see you debating, and, I mean, you weren’t just going on friendly shows. You were going on all kinds of shows.

Jenna Ellis (39:10):
The antagonistic ones were actually my favorites because I would go into any forum willing to speak truth. And I knew their audience, maybe they didn’t like it, but at least they had to hear it.

Dr. Jeff Myers (39:20):
Well, now you’re well known and you’ve got tons of social media followers, but you have paid a price for this. And I wonder if you’d just talk about that for a moment, because I want us to be aware that taking a stand and being courageous costs something. It’s not free.

Jenna Ellis (39:37):
Yeah, it’s really not. And so, of course, I was thrust even higher into the intensity of the national spotlight in the aftermath of the 2020 election. And having worked for President Trump for that long, having developed this friendship and relationship and counsel to him that he knew, I wasn’t afraid to tell him the truth and to contradict the advice of some of his other lawyers.

If I truly believed that the Constitution or the law said or gave him a certain argument, I would give him all of his options, not just the one that I wanted him to pick. And so he knew that of me. And so then in the aftermath of the 2020 election, he selected me to be one of the members of the legal team. And so I did basically what I had done for him before, which was to go and advocate in national media for the cases that were filed by our local lawyers on the ground.

(40:35):
And that was the most intense period of time in my life that was both, I knew I was standing up for truth. I was standing up for the principle of the rule of law that you’re not going to intimidate an advocate from representing a client just because they’re your political opponent, but so many of our other local counsel.

The day before Rudy Giuliani went and argued the case in Pennsylvania, the one hearing, the only reason he had to go and do that was because our local counsel called us the night before in tears saying that she had gotten a voicemail message from an unknown number, untraceable that was threatening her and her family. And she just said, “I can’t do this.” And I received those same threats. I had death threats, I had threats from people saying the most vile things. They would send me through burner phones, the most vile photographs of things.

(41:38):
There were people that would call and tell me, “You deserve to be raped.” I mean, just disgusting, despicable things. And I had to live with the rest of our legal team basically for our safety, quarantined in a hotel for about five or six weeks and spend Thanksgiving away from my family in just the most bizarre locations and truly have to decide, am I willing to stand up for the truth and for what our rule of law says and allows for claims, or am I going to be one that’s going to be intimidated?

And that pays a really, really heavy toll on just stress and on life. And since then, I’ve been the target of political opposition in terms of trying to disbar me here in the state of Colorado. I’m still working through that. I’ve had to hire my own counsel and attorneys to fight those fights.

(42:40):
I’ve still been attacked and maligned every day on Twitter with things that are just absolutely false. The way my favorite actually that I laugh about is a Wall Street Journal article that was written that the headline was something like how Jenna Ellis went from traffic court to the White House. And so it’s their favorite troll to be like, “Oh, you’re just a traffic court lawyer.” And I’m thinking, “Well, I went from third grade to the White House too, but there was a lot of stuff in between.”

But that’s how they like to discredit you and to try to malign what you have accomplished and my credentials. They tried to attack my age and my credibility. I mean, the fact that I’m a blonde, I mean, just crazy stuff that was just completely so farfetched and things that if the tables were turned, if I was working for a different political party president, I’d be lauded as the first female was 35 when she first started working as council to president of the United States and that’s amazing and go feminism and all of these other really bad worldviews, by the way.

(43:47):
But of course, these attacks continue to persist. And then I was subpoenaed by the January 6th committee, had to retain counsel for that, had to go through that whole process. There are still things. I mean, it’s been over a year and a half since, unfortunately, the legal claims were never heard in court. And so, of course, Joe Biden is in the White House right now, but it’s been a year and a half since I stopped working for the campaign and I am still to this day paying a price for that.

And I had this same conversation with my parents and I had it with you and your wife, Stephanie, just asking for prayer and saying, “Please do not allow evil to succeed, but if it does, please give me the courage, Lord, to stand up firm and say, would I do anything different knowing a price I would have to pay?” And the answer to that, of course, is absolutely not because when did we get so comfortable as Americans to say that as Christians here, looking at the persecution of Christians in other countries that is despicable, that we think that standing up for truth, we will never have to suffer or pay any penalty for.

(44:59):
That’s another promise actually in scripture is that you will go through trials and tribulations, but the Bible says, “Be of good cheer for I have overcome the world. We know how this ends.” And if they’re successful in taking away my bar license or calling me whatever names, I mean, I don’t even care at this point. I laugh at a lot of them on Twitter and they call me these vile names, racist, bigot, but insurrectionist, that’s my favorite one.

I want to get a T-shirt, or a hat that’s “subpoenaed.” There’s a group of us that want that. Wear it as a badge of honor and just be. And it’s so ridiculous because all of these titles and these terms that they’re trying to malign us to attack us with our credibility, ultimately what they’re trying to do is attack the truth. And it’s interesting to me that the worst hatred I get is not actually for representing Donald Trump, it’s for representing Jesus Christ.

(45:52):
When I post anything faith related, that is the worst kind of attacks that I get on social media, on emails, on people coming up to me and other things. And I think to myself, Lord, thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak truth and please continue to give me the boldness and the courage to never back down to these threats and these intimidations.

And I have truly through the last few years, although it has been very stressful, it has been very emotional at times, it is not easy. And people don’t see the hard work that goes into all of this. You just see the good things and some of the fun stories. But the thing that I’ve realized is that when I don’t care about the culture and when God says, “Be of good cheer and I have faith, which means believing in the promises of God and acting on them.” That is Hebrews 11, the hall of faith.

(46:50):
It’s the stories of all of these very unique individuals that believed in the promise of God and they acted on those promises. And if you go through and you highlight, and in my Bible, I’ve highlighted like Abraham believed, therefore he did, Sarah believed, therefore she did.

And you keep going through that verse and that whole chapter were surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses because we can know that even when it’s an unknown future, I don’t know what tomorrow holds, but what I do know is that trials and tribulations are promised. God has promised me and said, given me the command, “Be of good cheer. I have overcome the world.” So if I truly have faith and I genuinely believe in that promise, I will act on it. And there is a great cloud of witnesses of everyone in scripture who has gone before us and all of these amazing testimonies of people like C. S. Lewis.

(47:49):
Even the founders, so many people. I mean, look at the apostles and the disciples who were literally martyred for their faith and they refused to recant. Why? Because they believed in the promises of God and they acted. And so God called them faithful because the Bible also says that he who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it and we love him because he first loved us.

And so having faith, believing in the promises of God and acting on it, that’s how we have the fear of God and not of man. And so I can genuinely say that I am fearless because I don’t care what the world does to me and that ultimately is freedom. And the Bible also says that if we walk in him, if the son is set you free, then you are free indeed.

(48:41):
And so I have such a great hope and joy and cheer because I am truly fearless and I only fear my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ because he’s the only one that’s promised me anything and I know that he is the truth.

Dr. Jeff Myers (48:56):
I can’t think of a better challenge to a rising generation to end with. Jenna, thank you so much for being here tonight. So grateful.

Jenna Ellis (49:04):
Thank you, Jeff. I so appreciate it. And I hope that the challenge that you have put on yourselves by coming to Summit and by growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord, because that’s what it is. Jesus isn’t just your life coach to teach you how to live your best life. This is growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord so that we know his character and by doing that and growing in him, then you will be able to go and fulfill your calling.

And it will be challenging, but it will be the greatest adventure that you’ll ever take and God will be faithful to you because if he can use me in this kind of way, I promise you he can use you beyond your wildest dreams because I didn’t set out age 14 thinking. If somebody told me at age 14, honestly at that point I would have said, no way, I can’t do that.

(49:54):
But I know that at every step of the way, God taught me something. He brought me through the next thing so that I would have boldness in the moment to rise to the occasion and say, yes, I will stand firm in the truth. So continue because the Psalms also say that he is the light unto our path. And that’s not a beam way out there. It’s every single day and every single moment.

So walk in him, be in his calling on your life and know that when you are in his will, as Pastor John MacArthur told me, Jenna, I think you’re going to learn a lot about the sovereignty of God and he’s absolutely right and I still continue to learn.

Dr. Jeff Myers (50:34):
Thank you to my guest today, Jenna Ellis, for coming on the program. A lot of fun to do this interview with her. As you can tell, the Summit Ministries students are enthusiastic that there’s somebody out there who steps up and is willing to move into a royal position for such a time as this. We need that kind of courage. I don’t know if you sensed that, but it certainly helps strengthen my backbone and I’m grateful for it.

You can also listen to the Jenna Ellis Show on your own podcast platform and follow her on Twitter @JennaEllisESQ, short for Esquire. In the Book of Acts, the apostles did not shrink from declaring the whole council of God. That’s powerful. Jenna helps us understand the whole council of God for acting with integrity in the legal system and in the political arena, trying to secure justice for all. So grateful for her being on the show and thank you for joining us. I look forward to seeing you next week.

Ryan Dobson (51:34):
Thanks for listening to the Dr. Jeff Show. And don’t forget, you can help a child attend Summit summer session by going to summit.org/match. All your donations that are tax deductible will be doubled. God bless, have a great week, and we’ll see you next time for another Dr. Jeff Show.

Dr. Jeff Myers (51:52):
Listeners, I want you to know that our podcast is on Edifi, which is a truly powerful app that brings together thousands of the best Christian podcasts in one place for your listening enjoyment, you can download it at edifi.app. Be sure to share this show if you have enjoyed listening to it and leave a review, if you would, on the site where you download the show, that helps more people know about the Dr. Jeff Show, and I look forward to seeing you next week.