The Dr. Jeff Show Ep. 79 – Tim Barnett

Episode 79: Summary & Transcript

Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Dr. Jeff interviews Tim Barnett, a Christian apologist, about using the Apostle Paul’s engagement with philosophers in Athens (Acts 17) as a model for contemporary apologetics. Barnett shares his personal story of moving from a shallow faith to a career in apologetics. He then breaks down Paul’s method into several key principles, including listening with purpose, thinking contextually, responding graciously, and reasoning wisely from a deep knowledge of both Christian theology and the surrounding culture. The conversation concludes with Barnett applying these principles to the challenges of sharing faith in a post-Christian society like his native Canada.

Episode Transcript

Ryan Dobson (00:00):
Hi everyone. Ryan Dobson here for the Dr. Jeff Show. Summit camps are in full swing and kids are having a blast. In fact, my own son Lincoln is attending right now. There are so many kids who want to go to camp at Summit, but they just need a little help. A generous donor has agreed to match every donation to the Summit summer programs. Will you help a child learn the foundations of a Christian worldview at Summit? Donate online at summit.org/match and every tax-free donation will be doubled. Again, you can find that at summit.org/match. God bless, and let’s join the Dr. Jeff Show.

Dr. Jeff Myers (00:40):
How on earth can you stand for truth in a post-Christian society? Or what about a post-post-Christian society? I mean, so few people care about the truth that sometimes you think, “I’m not even sure it’s worth the trouble.” Well, today on Dr. Jeff Show podcast, I’m going to interview a guy named Tim Barnett, who will share with us some lessons that he’s learned from looking at a really amazing passage in the book of Acts, Acts chapter 17, where the Apostle Paul ministers in a society that was just as difficult when it comes to truth as the one in which we live.

So welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show podcast. And as a reminder, this show is available on Apple, Google, Spotify, Liftable, Edifi, wherever you get your podcasts. If you will take a moment to leave a positive review for the show and then take another moment and just share it with a friend and you can help get the word out as I interview world changers who are demonstrating that our worldview changes everything. Welcome to the show. Tim Barnett, welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show podcast.

Tim Barnett (01:47):
Hey, thanks for having me, Jeff. It’s good to be here.

Dr. Jeff Myers (01:50):
I’m really glad to have you on the show. This week, it’s been so much fun. This is the fourth of six interviews with Summit Ministries instructors who’ve come to the program. You were just today speaking with the Summit virtual students on the day that we’re recording this. And then you’ve been here at Summit Ministries in person. Of course, you work with Greg Koukl who has been on our show as well, talking about tactics. And you’re going to bring a really cool perspective. I’m so excited.

A year from now, you’re going to be seeing Tim again on this show because he and Alisa Childers, who’s also been a guest on this show, I just love how many fun people we get to have on this program, are writing a book about the people deconstructing their faith.

(02:35):
Big movement right now. So we’re going to have all of that to look forward to. If you’re listening right now, I know many of you as you’re listening, you’re going for a walk or a run or you’re in the car. So just kind of bear that in mind. Keep that in mind. Tim Barnett, he’s going to be back with Alisa Childers when they put that book out next October.

But Tim, listen, it’s been so much fun to have you at Summit Ministries. One thing I love about you is the students, just when we tell them, you can ask any question you want, they’re like, “Okay, Tim Barnett’s here. We’re going to ask every question.” They don’t just ask questions about what you spoke on. They ask questions about everything.

Tim Barnett (03:15):
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (03:17):
Which I love. I just love the spirit of that. But what are some of the kinds of questions that you’re getting from students these days?

Tim Barnett (03:26):
Yeah. And I want to reiterate that because man, it doesn’t matter where we go, whether it’s Summit or one of these others. I was at a youth camp in Wisconsin just a couple days ago and people will say that students don’t care about apologetics or they don’t care about why they believe what they believe. And it is just not true. We run into Summit Ministries or some of these other events and the questions we get, students are hungry for answers.

And so this morning, a couple hours ago, I did a talk on tactics, but the questions were on things like the problem of evil. What do we say to that? The creation evolution discussion, free will versus God’s sovereignty. I mean, those are the kinds of questions that our students are thinking about and that’s exciting to me because I’ll tell you what, Jeff, when I was their age, I wasn’t thinking about that stuff at all.

(04:23):
I grew up in the church, but I didn’t have a very deep faith. My faith was like an inch deep and an inch wide. It was pretty shallow. And so it’s exciting to me to look at this next generation hungry for answers because we have answers for them. So it’s good.

Dr. Jeff Myers (04:42):
Yeah. So good. Well, people have probably figured out just from the first few sentences that you’ve said that you’re Canadian. You say, “a boot.”

Tim Barnett (04:50):
Yeah, that’s right.

Dr. Jeff Myers (04:52):
You’re Canadian. That’s right. So tell us just a little bit of your story. How did you get from that place where you didn’t feel that you had a deep faith to now you’re actually speaking on apologetics and training people all over the world?

Tim Barnett (05:04):
Yeah. So I grew up in a small country church. There were 50 people in the congregation and I was related to half of them. And I’m actually not even exaggerating about that. And then it wasn’t actually until I was in university doing a degree in physics at a secular university. And this was near Toronto, a very multicultural and religiously diverse place. And so I had friends who were Muslim and Jewish and atheists and so on. And we would end up talking about some of these big philosophical questions, which I had never talked to. I never even considered actually before.

So it wasn’t actually like, my first doubts didn’t come from within. They came from without. Somebody was asking me a question, “Tim, why are you a Christian?” And this is a true story. I was in the science library at York University. One of my friends says to Tim, “You go to church, why are you a Christian?” And the first words out of my mouth were, “Because my parents are Christians.” And it was like, you know when you say something, I mean, all men have done this, especially married men.

(06:15):
You say something, the words are already out of your mouth and you’re wishing, “Can I grab those? Can I pull those back in? I wish I never said that.” All the husbands are like, they’re tracking with me right now. And so this was one of those moments though. It was embarrassing on multiple levels because here I was, I earned my right to be amongst my peers here. I put in the hard work and got good grades. And so I’m supposed to be somewhat educated and I gave this really bad response.

And so I went home and started looking into the claims of Christianity. And fortunately for me, I stumbled. I mean, I was going to Google, which is not recommended, okay? But I went to Google and I started seeing that there were some really thoughtful Christians out there. And actually, one of the Christians I found was Greg Koukl of all people and started following him and listening to him, and he’s the president of Stand to Reason.

(07:23):
You’ve had him on the show and he is now my boss. And what’s amazing is I started learning about this stuff and I hope this encourages your listeners because I want them to think, look it, if you are faithful with what God has given you, then God will honor that faithfulness. And I got my degree in physics, wanted to become a teacher, started doing that.

And of course I’m learning all this apologetic stuff and falling in love with it and thinking, where has this been all my life? How did I not know who William Lane Craig is? And yet now he’s like the center of my universe at the time or Josh McDowell or any of these guys and how could I be in my 20s growing up in the church and not know who they are? So I started speaking for like no money and in front of empty rooms essentially.

(08:12):
Here’s the broom closet at our church. You can use that for your little apologetics thing. And it started to snowball a little bit. And I ended up being at a conference in this area where I live and Sean McDowell was the keynote speaker. And so I introduced myself to Sean. Sean watched me do an atheist role play in one of the breakout rooms and we went out for dinner, sat and we just hit it off. And he’s like, Tim, I am going to help you. That’s what he said to me.

And then we exchanged information, he left and a few months later I was getting an email from Stand to Reason saying, “Hey, we want to talk.” And the rest is history. Now I work for Stand to Reason out in Southern California, a little Canadian boy living in the Toronto area working with this amazing organization. It really is a dream come true.

Dr. Jeff Myers (09:07):
Yeah, I love it. Well, we have people who are listening to the show, watching the show from literally all over the world. There are countries all over the world. Special shout out to all of our friends in Hong Kong and in Malaysia, in the Philippines who are watching the show right now listening to it.

And I think it’d be interesting to know as we get toward the end of the show, maybe for you to talk a little bit about how the things we’re learning about apologetics in this episode apply in what amounts to a post-Christian society in Canada. So I don’t want to start there though. I’d like to end there because I want to build a framework a little bit. You tell people that you want to train people to be apologists.

(09:54):
And of course, we know the word apologea from scripture to give an answer for 1 Peter 3:15, but you say a Paul, P-A-U-L. And you are drawing people to the writings of the Apostle Paul, this apostle of Jesus Christ in the New Testament and specifically you talk about Acts chapter 17, and we can create a little bit of the context. So everybody, when you get to a place where you can regain control, not when you’re behind the wheel, not right now, but go look up Acts chapter 17, start it. Is it a verse 16 that where the Apostle Paul goes to a place called the Ariapagus.

And I’ve been there, it’s in the shadow of the acropolis of where all of these huge temples were that represented the height of Greek philosophy, worship, worship of the Greek gods, the Romans. They came in, conquered Athens and built their temples up there as well. I have never seen more temples in one place than there. And in the shadow of that, in this place called the Ariopagus, the Apostle Paul says something that’s absolutely profound and is going to be the basis of our discussion today.

Tim Barnett (11:14):
Yeah. So this is really good because it’s kind of a dad joke when I say, we’re called to imitate Paul and be apologists like Paul. So we’re supposed to be Paul ages and it’s like, okay, and I get most audiences when I say that kind of groan, okay? But I say, look, we’re going to imitate Paul here. And it’s not just that Paul tells us to be apologists. Peter tells us, 1 Peter 3:15, I mean, the word apologia is used eight times in the New Testament and every time it means to give a defense or an answer for your faith, a formal defense.

If you go back to Acts 17:1, Paul starts in Thessalonika and Paul does what Paul does. He starts preaching the gospel, and that was his custom. He’d go and it says there that he was reasoning from the scriptures, but then the Jewish leaders chase him out of Thessalonika and he ends up in Berea and he starts, what’s he doing?

(12:20):
Preaching the gospel again. And he gets chased out of Berea and he ends up on his way to Corinth, and that’s where chapter 18 picks up, but he stops. His companions take him as far as Athens, and now he’s waiting for Timothy and Silas. And so what’s amazing here before we even launch out is everything that happens after verse 16 is all because Paul was waiting.

And so the first observation, and this is like the takeaway for everyone listening, if you want to be an apologist, I encourage people to listen apologetically. Paul, he’s waiting and he saw his spirits provoked within him because he saw the city was full of idols. There’s something like 30,000 idols in Athens at this time. And Paul sees, “Hey, here’s an opportunity.” And so here’s my challenge to our listeners, where do you see opportunities and how are you waiting?

(13:29):
Most of us have these glowing rectangles in front of us. And so whenever we wait, I mean, I was just at the airport a couple days ago, and when we’re waiting, we’re so busy staring at these things that we miss all kinds of opportunities that are around us. And so there’s something to that, right? It’s like God has given us opportunities and I wonder how many we’ve missed because we are distracted. And here’s Paul paying attention.

Dr. Jeff Myers (13:57):
So we’re waiting to do what God wants us to do and it is in that time of waiting that he’s actually using us. That’s really powerful. And I’m actually seeing all this physically in my mind because if you walk off the backside of the Areopagus and go down the street a little bit, you’re in this marketplace, which you can still see. There’s a place called the stoa, which people go there to debate.

And then there’s this place that’s a marketplace, or at least it used to be a marketplace, but what do you call them? The pedestals of the statues are, a lot of them still there, still there. So you can see what Paul might’ve been looking at as he’s walking around hundreds of these statues. Every ideology that’s represented is represented right there. It’s a lot like an airport is today.

Tim Barnett (14:48):
Sure. And I think that our listeners, think about your own context. For me, I used to be a full-time high school teacher, and I’ve worked in the private school system, a Christian school system, and the public system. And actually, I was working in the public system. I mean, we could go off on all kinds of discussions in there, but I was an on- call teacher for one period, and that just means that teacher was off, and so I was filling it.

So I’m there at the desk and at the board, and the teacher had already written the instructions for that period on the board. So I didn’t have anything to do. So I’m just waiting. And the students, the bell goes, students start funneling in, and I hear two students, and one student says to the other, “There’s no good reason to believe in God.” And you better believe, Paul, my spirit was provoked within me.

(15:42):
Okay? This is supposed to be like whatever, a science class. I forget what the exact class was, but you better believe that that entire period we were talking about the existence of God. I mean, it was like, here’s this really cool, and I was just using questions, I was being respectful and whatever, but we got this amazing conversation and it all started because just listening, what’s going on? Is there an opportunity here? So I mean, that’s the first step. That’s the first verse, and yet I think there’s a real application there.

Now, the second thing, how to be an apologist. Well, and it has to do with what you just described, the whole marketplace. We need to think contextually, is what I say. So we listen apologetically or listen with a purpose, and then we think contextually. What’s really fascinating about Acts 17 is that Paul describes two groups, two places, and two kinds of religious groups.

(16:41):
You’ve got the synagogue and the Jews or the devout Greeks, as he calls them, and then you have the marketplace, and there’s just all kinds of people there. And he mentions some philosophers and some other people. And so you have these two religious contexts, and Paul actually kind of adapts how he approaches them based on the context. If you go back to the beginning of Acts 17, when he’s talking in Thessalonika to that group, those were Jews.

And so what does Paul do? He reasons from the scriptures. Okay, really cool, because they have common ground. They believe in God, the creator of the universe. They believe in the scriptures, at least the Old Testament is what they would’ve been working from. They, what we call the Old Testament, they believe in the Messiah, that there is a Messiah. And so what does Jesus do or what does Paul do? He connects the Messiah and draws a straight line to Jesus in the resurrection.

Dr. Jeff Myers (17:36):
Yeah.

Tim Barnett (17:37):
Okay.

Dr. Jeff Myers (17:38):
Yep. Yeah.

Tim Barnett (17:39):
Now what does he do?

Dr. Jeff Myers (17:41):
So in the waiting, he’s moving through these places, he’s engaging people in discussion. The context is that he’s reasoning with the Jews from the scripture. And I guess you’ll talk in a minute about how he handles the Epicureans and the Stoics, the other philosophers who are there, but yeah.

Tim Barnett (18:01):
Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (18:01):
Got it.

Tim Barnett (18:03):
Yeah. Well, he has to start from a different place, right? Because they don’t share a common authority. He can’t, and this is really fascinating. Go through Acts 17, verse 16, all the way to the end of the chapter, and you won’t see a quote from a Bible verse in there. Paul isn’t going to quote his authority here. He actually goes back all the way back to God, the creator of the heavens and the earth and moves forward from there. So he starts from a different position.

And I would just want to challenge again, our listeners, what’s the application here? What culture do we live in? Who are you talking to? What is their worldview? Because depending on who you’re talking to, you’re going to approach them differently. So if they already believe that the Bible’s authoritative, okay, then start with the Bible. But most people today are not synagogue Jews, they’re marketplace Athenians. Okay? That’s who we’re dealing with. And so we ought to approach them in that way, the same way Paul does.

(19:21):
Okay. So let’s go to number three. Okay? You want to be an apologist? You’re going to listen apologetically, think contextually. The next thing is really cool. And it’s something that often gets left out in these kinds of discussions, and that is respond graciously. Paul actually says, and I won’t read the whole thing, but at verse 22, so Paul’s standing in the midst of the Areopagus. So he gets dragged into the Areopagus.

And he says, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I pass along and observe the objects of your worship, I found also an altar to the unknown God.” So what’s really interesting is he says, “You guys are religious in every way.” He doesn’t begin with a condemnation. He actually begins with admiration. He doesn’t say, “You guys are stinking pagan sinners and you need to repent.” He is going to get to repentance.

(20:19):
Okay? He’s going to get there, but he starts by saying these are, remember, 30,000 idols. And he says, “I perceive that in every way you are very religious.” It’s almost like he’s saying, “You’re religious. Me too.” He doesn’t call them idols, he calls them objects of worship. This is responding graciously. And that’s exactly what Paul says in Colossians four, verses five and six, walking wisdom towards outsiders making the best use of your time. And then he says, “Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt.” Paul practices what he preaches here.

And this is, man, there are so many apologists, and Jeff, you know them too. We’re not going to name names here, but there are people who I wish would get out of this business because they’re just not nice people. They’re not friendly. They’re jerks. And our message and the messenger are sometimes equally important because people are watching the messenger. And so the gospel is offensive enough. We don’t have to add offense to it by being mean or mean spirited or jerks or whatever. Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (21:41):
So good.

Tim Barnett (21:41):
So there’s actually, this is not a Bible quote. I saw a tweet and I thought, man, someone should write this on a pillow or put it on a coffee cup. And the pastor says, “The fool says in his heart, the rightness of my theology makes up for the wrongness of my attitude.” And I’m like, “Bingo.” Right there.

Look at Paul talking with people he disagrees with and I mean, they’re worshiping idols and he still approaches them with this really sweet spirit. “I perceive you’re very religious.” I like that. There’s something really cool about that. And we have a very hard time doing that, don’t we? I mean, just look at the political landscape. If you disagree, I’m going to come at you. I’m going to take you out at the knees, right?

Dr. Jeff Myers (22:35):
Yeah. Yeah. And so that’s what gets attention. Watch so and so demolish the atheist argument in five seconds is always going to get more clicks than watch the apologist speak the truth in grace to the atheist. That’s going to get five clicks. The other one’s going to get five thousand. We know that, but in a clickbait world, it’s easy to make the conflict at the center of it. Whereas what you’re talking about is, start by finding common ground.

Tim Barnett (23:15):
Yeah. Start by with common ground and he begins with common ground and a compliment. And I’m thinking, wow, you’re exactly right. The videos that go viral on YouTube and TikTok and all these other places have the word destroyed.

(23:31):
Or owned. So and so gets owned. And everyone’s like, “Oh, I want to see someone get owned.” They don’t like, so Paul’s sermon here is not going to go viral on YouTube. At this point, it’s too sweet. Now, he is going to bring truth. Let’s not forget. It’s not that he’s watering down the message here. He’s going to get to judgment at the end of it. And so there’s a lot.

So we’ve got to listen apologetically. Think contextually. What context are you in? Who are you talking to? What’s the worldview? Respond graciously. Be nice in how you approach this. The next thing is, I say, know deeply. And this is where Paul, he really knows his stuff. He says, now, the God who made the heavens and the earth, and he goes on from there, he can’t live in temples or made by human hands.

(24:25):
I’m just paraphrasing here, but he goes through, he knows his theology. And what’s really cool in this longer section is that he says,” If you seek God, perhaps you’ll feel your way toward him, though he is not actually far from any of us. “And so what I love about this point is Paul, he knows what he believes and why he believes it.

And I mean, this is the business we’re in. We are trying to equip Christians. And sadly, I’ll admit, up until I was in my early 20s, I really didn’t know my faith. I didn’t know the debates that Christians have in- house. I didn’t know anything about that stuff. I never thought about creation before and the different views. All these big words, these theological terms, completely oblivious. I had this real basic, I would call it crayon Christianity. I was like an infant.

(25:28):
I was still on milk, as Paul would put it, not mature at all. And that was not a good place to stay. We are called to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. And I mean, think about working out. Now, I’m not going to flex my muscles on the screen here because they’re not very big. But if you want to grow in your physical muscles, you got to get down there and start working out and you’re not going to see results in one day, but over time, you start to see those results.

Six months, a year down the road, it should be the same with our Christian life. We ought to, what does it look like today and what’s it going to look like six months from now? And the hope is that we are moving and becoming more mature and more transformed even daily.

(26:17):
And so we ought to know deeply and the next thing I say is read widely. And that’s because, and this is a point that blew my mind at first because Paul quotes, he actually quotes from two poets and he actually says, yet he is not far from each one of us. And verse 28 says, “In him, we live and move and have our being, as some of your own poets have said, for we are indeed his offspring.”

And you might be thinking, “Oh, it’s got the quote marks, so he’s probably quoting the Old Testament.” And actually he’s not. He’s quoting from the authority that these particular Greeks would have found persuasive. So the first quote we think is from Epamenities in him, we live and move and have our being and the stoic philosopher erratics for we are indeed his offspring. This is so cool.

(27:14):
Paul doesn’t just know what he believes in his own worldview. He knows their worldview. And I mean, this is like one of those things that is challenging to me personally. How well do I know the culture around me? How well do I know their worldview? Can I quote their authorities to them and use it to my own advantage? This is like, wow, Paul, I mean, we just get these couple quotes, but what’s behind these is really powerful. And I mean, this is what the ministry’s all about, understanding worldview and not just our worldview, but the worldview that we’re living in, right?

Dr. Jeff Myers (27:53):
Yeah. This is great.

Tim Barnett (27:55):
Yeah. So that was number, I forget what number that was. That’s five. And then this one, I mean, the next one I say is he reasons wisely. And I’ll just summarize Paul’s argument. He basically says, look, you guys, God can’t be made of gold and stone and silver. He’s looking at their idols.

(28:16):
And he basically says, “An idol made by man can never be the God who made man.” I mean, just think about that. You’re making these gods. So how can they be God? Because he just quoted their prophets, you’re his offspring. And him, we live and move and have our being. So even by your own account of reality, you’re able to see that you can’t be forming God. And so he’s making an actual philosophical argument here.

And that, again, that’s a challenge to all of us. Can we stand in the Areopagus, so to speak, and make this argument? I’m sure the listeners are thinking, “Tim, I know Paul. I can’t reason like that. That’s not me and I don’t have that kind of confidence.” But the reality is Paul is able to do this. He’s able to speak so boldly and confidently because he understands what’s true and that his worldview is indeed an accurate account of what it describes reality and that gives him the confidence.

Dr. Jeff Myers (29:23):
I was just going to mention here, I mean, so many connections are coming into my mind, but again, just going back to Athens and thinking of this, from where he was speaking, any one of them could have just turned and looked up at the temple of Athena, which is a huge temple.

(29:38):
And there’s still most of it there today, all these almost 2,000 years later. And inside that temple would have been a statue of the goddess. And this wasn’t just an illustration that he was giving. It was actually a demonstration. They’re looking at this. This is attaching something that they can actually see right in front of them to the things that they know must be true. Somebody who was human made that statue of Athena. They made it. They probably knew who the people were who made it back in that time. But that can’t be Athena if it was made by us. Anyway.

Tim Barnett (30:28):
That’s good. I mean, it’s so good. This is Francis Schaefer, who’s just absolutely brilliant. He talks about taking the roof off and Greg Koukl talks about it in the book Tactics too. And the idea is all people are made in the image of God and they live in God’s world. Now, if there are unbelievers, it’s going to create what Schaefer called a point of tension. Okay, so what’s the point? And so when people have a point of tension, what they do is they build a cover or a roof that protects them.

And so what Schaefer is encouraging us to do is, you know what you got to do? Take that roof off. And I think that’s kind of what Paul’s doing here. He’s saying, “Look, you guys worship God and your own poets say that you’re his offspring, and yet you’re making these statues look around at them.” And yeah, like you said, you know the guy who made that statue, and yet you’re saying that’s God.

(31:30):
And so he’s kind of like, just think about this for a second. He removes the roof so that they can just feel they’re now exposed to reality here. And sometimes you’ve just got to let people sit in that. And I think that’s what’s going on here with Paul.

Dr. Jeff Myers (31:45):
Cool. Well, let’s draw this to a conclusion because I don’t mean to cut you off. I’m thinking of our time and I want to be sure that we can apply this, kind of finish the show by saying, what does this look like in your sort of post-Christian environment?

Tim Barnett (32:03):
Sure.

Dr. Jeff Myers (32:03):
Because we want to be able to do what the Apostle Paul is doing.

Tim Barnett (32:08):
Yeah. Okay. So let me finish with one last point, because I think it’s really important. And I just say, I call it, trust faithfully. And I really appreciate, in this account, and again, we’re encouraging, read Acts 17 for yourself, but at the end it says, “Some mocked. Some said we’ll hear more from you, Paul, and some believed.” Now, this is one of those occurrences where he doesn’t, Luke doesn’t just say some believed, which is what he does in other places. But Luke in recording this gives us the negative response.

And I actually love that because my experience has been some of those negative responses. I have been mocked for communicating what I think were good arguments or the gospel or whatever. And some have said, “We’ll come hear you. Let’s keep talking.” And some have believed. But man, we just present, Paul presented and then he trusted God to be faithful with what he had done.

(33:14):
And if you, practically speaking, are presenting good arguments, you’re being persuasive and people are mocking you, just take courage that Paul was mocked too, so you’re in good company. So that might be a good place to end that.

Dr. Jeff Myers (33:30):
Be faithful, and then you’re leaving the outcome to him. Our job is to be faithful in communicating that message. Okay. So take us back to, let’s say Canada. United States. A lot of people say, “Oh, it’s post-Christian society.” If America’s post-Christian, then Canada is probably post-Christian. It’s different. It’s different. It’s different.

Tim Barnett (33:57):
It is. It is for sure.

Dr. Jeff Myers (33:59):
So tell us a little bit about being a Christian apologist in Canada.

Tim Barnett (34:06):
Yeah. It’s definitely down. If there’s a moral decline or slide, we are definitely further along down the slide than the US. And I mean, it’s not just the moral stuff and the religious stuff, but anyone who’s been following even politically and what happened with the pandemic and essentially having freedoms just kind of stripped away. I mean, we couldn’t even gather in our churches for over a year. No church, just online church, which is not church. Okay. I’m just saying.

And then of course, being able to come back, but the mask and all this, I mean, there’s just so many things. So let’s just put that aside for a second and just talk about morally speaking and religiously speaking, very religiously diverse. To preach a sermon on a Sunday morning that Jesus is the only way is as controversial as it gets here. Wow. Okay. I have had people get up, like groups of people get up during a Sunday morning service that I’m, I guess, speaker at, and leave.

(35:18):
And the topic was, “Is Jesus the only way?” Wow. And what’s interesting is in those talks, it’s not Tim Barnett giving his opinion. What I try to do is put Jesus in the hot seat. Okay? Here’s what Jesus said. Here’s what his followers said. I’m just quoting to you. But that alone is offensive to this culture that I’m living in. Wow. And then of course, morally speaking, we legalize same-sex marriage 10 years before you guys. I mean, we have no laws whatsoever on abortion and there isn’t a politician willing to touch it.

(35:56):
I mean, we are one of three countries, China, North Korea, and Canada, and they have no laws whatsoever on abortion. No one will even make a law. So it’s just truly amazing in a horrifying way to kind of where Canada is right now. And that makes it very difficult as an apologist to speak to this culture because one, they just deny truth and that’s one hurdle, but there’s this other hurdle where to speak up is to put a huge target on your back.

And so a lot of Christians are in the trenches and they do not even want to poke their heads up for fear that it’s going to get blown right off. And so man, my prayer for Canada is that more Christians will boldly speak the truth. What’s amazing is we had a guy like Jordan Peterson from the University of Toronto, not too far from where I live.

(36:56):
And here’s a guy who at least initially was never claiming to be a Christian. And I’m not sure where he’s at in his spiritual journey. It’s kind of exciting to see where he’s headed. But here’s Jordan Peterson willing to say, “I am going to stand my ground when it comes to truth.”

(37:11):
He’s not talking about the Bible, but he’s talking about reality. And I mean, I think that encouraged a lot of Canadians, in particular a lot of young men. And so I think this is why he has such a large following across the globe, but in particular in Canada too. So that’s kind of just to give you a sense of where we’re at. And I find that when I go to the US, you guys are just more bold, more willing to take a stand than, kind of, the average Canadian.

Dr. Jeff Myers (37:46):
So Acts 17 though is the passage for Canada for right now that believers can take those principles and use them to bring truth into the discussions of all of the other things that are being talked about as important. This really is our model for our day.

Tim Barnett (38:09):
Wow. This could be Paul standing in the University of Toronto, you know what I’m saying? And giving the same kind of message. Yeah, it’s completely relevant to where we’re at as a culture, especially a Canadian culture in this moment. Yeah.

Dr. Jeff Myers (38:26):
Wow. Tim, thanks so much for this. This is so good. And everybody who’s watching or listening right now, go home, study that passage. In fact, pick it up and read it to somebody else and say, “I just listened to this podcast and you won’t believe what these two guys say. I mean, that this passage from way, way back then is relevant to now.” And then read it to them and talk about it. Use that as an opportunity to discuss the truth because we want people to come to a knowledge of the truth, as the Apostle Paul said later to his protege, Timothy. Awesome. Amen. Thanks, brother. Appreciate your time so much.

Tim Barnett (39:05):
Appreciate you too.

Dr. Jeff Myers (39:07):
Thank you to my guest today, Tim Barnett, for joining on the Dr. Jeff Show podcast. Thank you for joining on the Dr. Jeff Show podcast. You’ll probably want to know more. So you can follow Tim on Twitter @TimothyBarnett, B-A-R-N-E-T-T. Jesus said, love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all of your strength. The resources you’re going to find from Stand to Reason, which is str.org, and from Tim Barnett are going to help all of us. Not only as we love God with all of our hearts and souls, but also with our intellect. Thanks for joining the show this week and I’ll see you soon.

Ryan Dobson (39:48):
Thanks for listening to the Dr. Jeff Show. And don’t forget, you can help a child attend Summit summer session by going to summit.org/match. All your donations that are tax deductible will be doubled. God bless, have a great week, and we’ll see you next time for another Dr. Jeff Show.

Dr. Jeff Myers (40:06):
Listeners, I want you to know that our podcast is on Edifi, which is a truly powerful app that brings together thousands of the best Christian podcasts in one place. For your listening enjoyment, you can download it at edifi.app. Be sure to share this show if you have enjoyed listening to it and leave a review, if you would, on the site where you download the show that helps more people know about the Dr. Jeff Show, and I look forward to seeing you next week.