The Dr. Jeff Show Ep. 15 – Haley McNamara

• The Church’s Role in Ending Human Trafficking—Rebecca Sachaj
• 4 Ways to Stand Against the Avalanche of Pornography—Karl Schaller
• The Dr. Jeff Show Ep. 4–Linda Smith

Episode 15: Summary & Transcript

Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Dr. Jeff Myers interviews Haley McNamara, Director of the International Center on Sexual Exploitation and Vice President of the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. The conversation focuses on the pervasive nature of sexual exploitation, particularly how it affects children and young people through technology and the internet.

Haley discusses alarming statistics about sexual exploitation and provides practical advice for parents, emphasizing the importance of ongoing conversations about sexual safety rather than one-time discussions. A significant portion also focuses on Haley’s advocacy work and addresses recovery resources for those struggling with pornography addiction. Haley concludes by encouraging young people to be brave and speak truth, even when unpopular, and to take action in whatever area they feel called to address.

Episode Transcript

Dr. Jeff Myers (00:00):
Parents, in today’s show, we’re going to talk about a really tough subject about sexual exploitation and pornography. I just want you to be aware, if you have children in the room, that this is where we’re going to go with this show. So get them busy doing something else and find that what we’re going to be doing in today’s show will give you incredible hope as a parent, but also practical strategies to help raise healthy kids in this time.

Hey everyone. It’s Dr. Jeff. On the Dr. Jeff Show, I interview major thought leaders from many fields of influence showing how our worldview changes everything. Today I have a guest who’s special to me because she’s a graduate of the Summit Ministries program that I have the opportunity to head up. Every year, young adults come for a two week in person session or a one week virtual session and it is absolutely life changing.

(00:52):
In fact, you’re going to hear from today’s guests how this program helped her develop the courage to stand up for people who are being exploited around the world. Our worldview isn’t just something that stays in our minds. It’s something that we have to live out and act on. And today’s guest, Haley McNamara, is a prime example of that. She’s the director of the International Center on Sexual Exploitation and the Vice President of the National Center on Sexual Exploitation.

I think you’re going to be shocked at how exploitation is going on in our towns, right under our noses. And you may be surprised to find out how what people think are private sexual sins actually have worldwide consequences, but you’re also going to hear how there is hope and healing for everyone involved. Welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show. Haley McNamara, welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show.

Haley McNamara (01:45):
Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Jeff Myers (01:47):
Well, you are in England and I’m in the United States. And it’s so fun that because of technology, we get to have this conversation and catch up a little bit because it’s been a while since we’ve had a chance to talk. But now you are the director of the International Center on Sexual Exploitation. And we’re going to get into all of this work and what this involves because it’s so exciting and it’s so encouraging to see the difference that you have been able to make.

But you are part of this movement to demonstrate that pornography is part of a web of interconnected activities that results in the exploitation of women and children. And the way you framed it helped people see, oh, standing against pornography is not just something I do because I’m a moral scold. Oh, you’re just imposing your Christian values. But you’re actually standing up for women and children.

(02:45):
And while a lot of people are super discouraged about big tech, you have been able to go into some of these companies and get them to make major changes that benefit women and children. And I can’t wait to get into the discussion of how you actually do that.

Haley McNamara (03:05):
Oh, well, me too. I mean, it’s pretty wild. It’s not the kind of job that I ever grew up thinking that I would be doing. My mom, all the time, says she wishes that I worked in a flower shop instead. It’s sometimes pretty dark subject matter, but there’s a lot of hope in it and a lot of room for progress. So it’s exciting when you can see that happen.

Dr. Jeff Myers (03:28):
In a few minutes, I want you to take us behind the scenes of what those conversations are like. How do you just walk up to Google and have a conversation about something like this? Because I know everybody’s thinking big tech is just so horrible. And these people are not responsive to our concerns, but you have found that they are if you approach it in the right way. So I can’t wait for you to tell us a little bit about that.

But first, I want to talk about, I want our audience to get to know you a little bit. So we have a lot of people, 60 different countries who are watching this and a lot of them are young adults, 18 to 29 years of age, kind of wondering, what am I going to do with my life? How do I make sense of life in the modern world? And a lot of people are just people who are, like you, who are fans of Summit Ministries. And you’re a Summit Ministries graduate. I should just go ahead and mention that right up front.

Haley McNamara (04:26):
Yeah. I had such an amazing time with Summit Ministries. And in many ways, I feel like kind of the life path that I’ve been led on and experienced, I actually bring a lot of it back to Summit Ministries really for the point of speaking truth, which is so needed in really every area of society, but especially I found in the area of sexual exploitation, pornography and issues of sexual exploitation that people don’t often want to talk about, just being the one who’s willing to stand up and speak truth in the room with Google or another company, it’s really amazing what impact that can have. So yeah, I absolutely loved my time at Summit Ministries.

Dr. Jeff Myers (05:11):
Tell me a little bit more about that because I know a lot of people are thinking, “I think I want my child to go to Summit Ministries, but it’s a lot of time and there’s a financial commitment that is part of it, even though we’ll help people if they can’t make it happen financially.” It’s still a big commitment. What was it about coming to Summit for two weeks that helped you become the kind of person who could stand?

Haley McNamara (05:34):
I think the biggest thing was that you can ask questions and that there’s no question that’s too big and there’s no question that doesn’t have at the end of the day an answer. And I think also it really showed me that the world is set up the way that it is for a reason. So especially as a Christian, my beliefs when I see something that is not in accordance with God’s will, it has ramifications and being able to learn about that.

So that’s why I think, especially the issue of pornography, many people can look at it and certainly from a religious point of view, most religions in the world look at it and say, “This is an immoral thing or there’s not something right here.” But when you actually then say, “Okay, well, let me ask questions about it. Why isn’t it? Or what are the effects and ramifications of it?”

(06:26):
You start to uncover so much research and so many heartbreaking stories really. So I think that that ability to ask questions and to know that truth has consequences and you can see when something is in line with the truth or not based on the effect it has on the world.

Dr. Jeff Myers (06:45):
You mentioned something just briefly a minute ago that has been on my mind all day. We’ve been recording videos for different things for pretty much all the last couple of days. The power of one person who will stand up and say, “No, this is not right. This is not the direction we should be going.” And thank you for becoming that person in this critical area.

Haley McNamara (07:13):
Oh, well, I’m surrounded by people who do it. And I think that’s also a really encouraging thing about working in this space. And you probably feel similarly with your work, is that once you kind of enter a space and you realize that it’s contested, there’s certainly people who are against you, but you’re never going to be alone if you’re speaking up for truth. There are so many others who see the same thing.

And sometimes it leads to unlikely allies or people who, at the beginning of the case, you didn’t really think that you would be on the same side of it, but people who can look at the same truth and just are willing to speak it. So I’m very thankful to know that there’s, I mean, we work with a wide coalition in over a hundred countries of people who also care about ending sexual exploitation.

Dr. Jeff Myers (07:58):
Wow. Well, I know a lot of people are wondering, how do I become that kind of a person? How do I get that kind of courage? And so I wanted to just ask you, just go back in your life a little bit, as you think back even on your childhood, what happened in your upbringing that made you want to be the kind of person who defends people who are victimized?

Haley McNamara (08:23):
That’s a really good question. I don’t know if I could pin a certain moment, but I was raised in a Christian home and always leading with empathy, but even things just always really bothered me when someone was treated unjustly. I remember my mom teaching me about American slavery and racism in America for the first time. And I just cried and asked her if it was the worst thing that people had ever done to each other. And unfortunately, it’s one of many horrible things that humans have done to each other over the years.

And so I think just from a young age, I had high empathy. But then also even going into my middle school and high school years, there were aspects of the world that were very hostile to me as a young woman, sexual harassment and just unwanted attention. And these things always just hit me as very unjust.

(09:19):
And not only when it happened to me, but even more so with friends that I knew. Probably one pivotal moment among many was, I knew a close friend who was only 13 years old when she met someone online who presented themselves as their same age and they started a romantic relationship online. It was an older predator who ultimately manipulated and forced her into creating sexually explicit images, which he then used to blackmail her into further abuse.

And this was, I was from a small town in the Midwest, you could walk down your street and to your neighbor’s house and it really had this allure of safety, but it still happened there. I mean, this happens everywhere. And I think hearing that story, just in addition to the worldview of the family that I came from, set some early seeds for the work that I do now.

Dr. Jeff Myers (10:25):
And in that, a horrible circumstance, watching your friend go through that, at some point, it was like a switch was flipped where you said, “I am not going to be a person who stands by.” Take us into that a little bit, because I think a lot of people are right there on the edge. They want to stand for what is right, but they just aren’t sure if they can do it.

Haley McNamara (10:51):
Yeah. I remember I did some internships in Washington DC and in the course of them started learning even more about these issues. And with almost every issue, the more you learn about it, the more you just need to know more, you realize how much you don’t know. And I don’t remember what triggered it.

But I remember walking home one day and calling my mom and just crying, saying, “I know that I need to work on these issues, these issues of sexual exploitation and abuse.” And I was saying, “I feel like they’re all connected and there’s all of these different ways that they overlap and reinforce each other and no one’s really talking about it. And I don’t even know if this exists. This kind of job doesn’t exist.” And I remember praying and saying, “God, why did you give me such a strong feeling for something that could never happen?”

(11:40):
It doesn’t even exist. And then a couple weeks later, I was introduced to the organization that I now work at. So I think a lot of it for me is just taking some action on the calling that you feel that God is putting on your heart because sometimes it feels like a really big call or it feels like something that doesn’t exist or well, you don’t really have an opportunity to do something about it right now. But even just taking one or two steps for me, it was reaching out to this organization that I learned about and asking to attend one of their events.

And then through that, got to know them, through that eventually ended up working there, just take some action, even if it’s small. And I think that’s something that previously I would get in my head about the callings that God put on me, even if it was to go and speak to someone that maybe was feeling left out or to try to raise money for a certain cause, sometimes you just get into your head and don’t actually just take the first step and you never know where it can lead.

Dr. Jeff Myers (12:49):
Right. That’s such simple advice to attend an event, to raise your awareness, to meet other people who share a similar concern. That’s a perfectly natural first step. Haley, some of what we are going to talk about is tough because there is an underlying foundation of exploitation that seems to be so much a part of life today.

And like you said, in your small town, you wouldn’t notice it just walking down the street, everything seems fine. It’s middle America, everybody’s happy. But underneath, there is this exploitation, this threat that’s facing young people. And I’d like for you to just kind of talk about that a little bit, because I know there’s some parents who are watching or listening right now and thinking, “This is really scary, but I want to know the truth.” Tell us what’s really going on here.

Haley McNamara (13:58):
Yeah. This is an age-old problem. Since the beginning of time, people have been especially sexually exploiting and abusing each other. So this in some ways isn’t new, but in other ways, it’s more pernicious and ever present than ever really because of the internet. Offline abuse absolutely is very common. 93% of children who are sexually abused know their perpetrators. So usually it’s someone that you don’t expect. It’s a member of your family, it’s a close friend.

So I think in some ways, people believe that there’s going to be this stranger who comes out and kidnaps their child, but that’s usually not how it happens. It can be someone you know or it can happen online. Research shows that someone can be groomed online, whether that’s to either meet in person or to send sexually explicit messages that can later be used for blackmail, et cetera.

(14:58):
Someone can be groomed online, children in less than 20 minutes. And that’s all it takes. And even going into the issue of pornography, 93% of college students were exposed to it before they reached puberty and what an impact that has on development and expectations and beliefs around, well, what does consent mean?

And because pornography industry, of course, eroticizes lack of clarity at best around those themes. So what we’re seeing is just really a tidal wave. And children go online and they don’t have the tools and parents often don’t have the tools to even know that this is happening, let alone how to talk to their kid around it, what kind of guardrails to set up for them.

So it’s a really big problem, unfortunately. And, like I said, it’s multifaceted. There’s sex trafficking, child sexual abuse, sexually explicit images of children, and pornography exposure, which is harmful, pornography production, which is harmful. It’s really a long list. And once you start thinking about it, you just see it everywhere. That’s why I have to work on this full time, otherwise I’d go wild.

Dr. Jeff Myers (16:31):
Yeah. If we could go into the living room of a home and sit down with a cup of coffee with a parent, how do you talk with them about it? Because this is terrifying. The statistics you gave are terrifying. And I’ve worked with kids for a long time, and some of this scares me that I’ve never even heard some of this before. Have that conversation for a minute with that parent, how they can be discerning and aware without being terrified, or I don’t know if that’s the right way to put it.

Haley McNamara (17:08):
Yeah. I think being terrified is a natural first reaction, but we can’t stay there. That doesn’t help. And I think one of the biggest things is just building a healthy connection with your own child and normalizing talking about these issues. So the talk, the one time conversation about sex or sexuality cannot be a one-time event anymore in today’s day and age. So you have to talk about sex because otherwise the culture will talk to your kids about sex or a predator will talk to them about it.

So there’s a number of conversations that you need to have, including naming the body parts with your child so that they can explain to you if something has happened to them in clear terms. Also, talking to them about the harms of sending personalized information with someone that they don’t know, and also the harms of sending sexually explicit images and talking about this with children who are younger than what you would want to be talking to them about this with.

(18:11):
Because like I said, the girl who I know who had this happen to her was 13 years old when it happened. And also, research shows that 88% of self-produced sexually explicit images are shared with an unintended third party. So there’s also conversations you have to have with your kids just around sexting in general. And there’s some easy ways to do this than not.

You can watch a television show together and just comment and talk about the themes with your kid is a really simple way or mention to them that you read an article about a kid who had a bad experience with a predator or who was pressured into engaging in sexting. Make it not about them, but about this other outside topic, and you can then discuss it a little bit more. There’s also a lot of really great resources out there that I would love to mention.

(19:11):
Covenant Eyes is great for accountability with pornography viewing. Good pictures, bad pictures. They have a number of books that you can talk to your children about pornography in age appropriate ways. So there’s, Stop It Now is a great organization with information, talking to your children about abuse. But so really this comes down to having conversations, not being so scared or reactive that even if your kid says something to you that does scare you or disappoints you even, not reacting in a way so that they never want to have the conversation again.

So I say all these things, but also at the same time, so many children don’t have families that are willing to sit with them and have these conversations and be so involved. So if you are in a family where you can do that, that’s an incredible blessing that many children don’t have that benefit.

Dr. Jeff Myers (20:09):
Well, for those who are listening while you’re driving someplace right now or you’re out on a walk, we will link to all of the things Haley just mentioned in the show notes. So you’ll be able to get those resources to be able to use those with your children. Haley, a picture for a moment that you’re like a big sister to a young lady and who maybe is 13. What is that conversation going to be like? What are you going to say to her to help her be aware of the exploiters who are out there?

Haley McNamara (20:50):
I think in some, one of the first things I would do is just talk to her about what these issues even are. Interestingly, so many young people experience sexual harassment or grooming or unwanted pornography exposure, and they don’t have the words to even describe what their experiences are. They just think that it’s normal. They don’t even understand the dynamics that are at play. So I think we need to talk to kids about those issues.

And then also, especially with the young girls, that boundaries don’t make you mean. Boundaries don’t make you mean because that’s something that I hear so often from really young girls, especially if boys are pressuring them to do something that they don’t want to do or to send something that they don’t want to send and they’ll say, “Well, he says that if I don’t do it, it means I don’t trust him or it means I don’t love him and I don’t want to be mean.” And that’s not what boundaries are.

(21:53):
Saying no is a completely okay thing and anyone who makes you feel like it’s not okay is not to be trusted. So I think having those conversations, describing what the dynamics are and then just really trying to empower them that they, yeah, it’s completely acceptable and good to say no to things that they don’t want.

Dr. Jeff Myers (22:14):
Wow. Well, I could see how empowering that would be, especially to a young woman who’s in a position where her natural desire to be a life giver and to encourage and support others can be used against her to her own harm.

Haley McNamara (22:35):
Yeah. Very often, even exploiters and groomers, domestic violence, sex traffickers will say that they often target the nice people, the nice women. And boys and men can be exploited too and are, unfortunately, but it’s predominantly with females and they’ll look for someone who’s nice, who’s accommodating, who’s compassionate, empathetic, wants to be helpful. And those are good qualities, but it’s important, unfortunately, that we guard people that those qualities aren’t taken advantage of.

Dr. Jeff Myers (23:08):
Wow. This is so important. Thank you. I can imagine the relief that this conversation is to people who are watching and listening right now, who are raising kids and thinking, “This is really scary, but we can be brave and we can have a good conversation. I can frame this in a way that doesn’t raise cynicism or paranoia, but is realistic.” So thank you for helping give words to that. I really, really appreciate that.

I wanted to move into some of the work that you’re doing now, because from our earlier conversations, and correct me at any point along the way here, but from our earlier conversations, you realized that the very way information is delivered on the internet makes this problem so much worse, that there are video game companies that have, they literally have sexually explicit video games. You could be in the middle of a battle, and then there’s a sexually explicit scene, or Google might serve up an ad that leads to a sexually explicit site, or Google Play might offer an app that is sexually explicit that could be downloaded, and those kinds of things.

(24:35):
And so when you and your team realized this, and oh, and hotel rooms, that there’s sexually explicit content that’s available in hotel rooms, and there’s no guard against this. If you were to leave the room for 30 minutes and your kid is in there, and they turn on the TV, right there. So you guys decided to take on this, some of these big issues, and I’d love for you to take us behind the scenes, because it doesn’t seem possible to me, first of all, that you could just call up and say, “Hey, Google, can I come have a meeting with you?”

And second, that they would actually do anything about it, but your experience was different. Can you kind of take us behind the scenes of how you identify what a problem is, how you approach it, how you get in the door, and how you move them toward a solution that protects especially women and children?

Haley McNamara (25:31):
Great question. So how we first identify these problems is usually from either survivors or concerned parents, or sometimes even just our own investigations when we maybe open up a new app and immediately we’re a bit familiar with the issues now so we can see some vulnerabilities early on, but often it takes people being harmed, unfortunately, first, and who then are brave enough to speak up and share their story and take those action steps, and then we realize what these problems are. So one example of this is a couple years ago, I met with three young girls, all were 15 or younger in DC and they were all survivors of sex trafficking.

(26:16):
So that means they were already survivors by the time they were 14, 15 years old, exploring their healing and recovery journey. And they explained to me and some colleagues how Instagram was used to groom them and pretty much all of their friends. There were a number of ways, but one specific way that they said was the most common was through direct messages. So these young girls would have their accounts on private, which as a parent, you would think, “Okay, my child set their Instagram account to private, they’re all clear.”

But Instagram would actually allow strangers, adult men, strangers, when they sent a direct message to this account that was on private, it would still go through. They would still see the message and then often respond. And that’s really where the grooming process began for so many of these young girls. So we hear about this and we’re absolutely devastated and we reach out to some other direct service providers and some other survivors and realize that this isn’t just an isolated incident and especially across America, it was very common for young survivors to be groomed this way.

(27:33):
So we basically write a letter to Instagram and we do some sleuthing, to be honest, online. And we find their address. We find some email addresses, even just their general contact email addresses, and start sending them letters. Sometimes these letters will just be from our organization. Very often we’re including survivors or other organizations on these letters as well, just alerting them to the problem. And we spend a lot of time knocking on doors.

It’s funny you mention, how do you just call up one day and get a meeting with Google? We have to be very persistent and it helps that we’re part of an organization and speaking on behalf of survivors, of course. And then we get into these meetings. Eventually someone responds often because they’re concerned about liability issues at the beginning. And then when we get into the room, it’s always a little bit surreal.

(28:38):
And I’ve met with Instagram, I’ve met with almost every social media platform now, hotels, cable, online retail companies, online advertising companies, and every meeting is a little bit different, but it doesn’t always go the way that we want it to. Very often we’re raising issues to them and it takes them years to address it, if they ever do, but sometimes they do and they just are able to understand what the issues are.

In the case of Instagram, it’s now policy at Instagram that if you’re under 16, you cannot receive direct messages from adult strangers from anyone that you’re not friends with. And that has had cascading effects, not only on the billions of youth who use Instagram, but now we had a similar meeting with TikTok, and now TikTok has stopped minors from being able to direct message at all in the pursuit of trying to remove options for predators to groom people on TikTok.

(29:45):
And so it’s often small changes at a time, the companies never do exactly what we want all at the time that we wish they would, but it is amazing to see that incremental change is possible when you just bring these. It’s real life. These survivors to the table especially are always the most powerful. And at the end of the day, these are people too who are working at these companies and it’s really possible to impact their hearts and minds.

Dr. Jeff Myers (30:16):
Take us into that conference room for a moment. I remember one of the things you and I talked about was Google Play and they said, we will no longer allow apps that are for sexually explicit companies. Have I got that right?

Haley McNamara (30:32):
For pornography.

Dr. Jeff Myers (30:33):
For pornography.

Haley McNamara (30:35):
Unfortunately, they still have some apps that promote sugar dating.

Dr. Jeff Myers (30:39):
Okay. And then on top of all of this, you just have the objectification of women. That’s on every site.

Haley McNamara (30:49):
Yes.

Dr. Jeff Myers (30:50):
Even the news sites that I look at, which are conservative sites, they still put all those objectifying pictures on there. But take us into the room of this meeting with Google Play for a moment. So let’s say you’re in a conference room, you’re having this conversation. Is there a typical response that they have? And then what objections do they raise and how do you handle those?

Haley McNamara (31:21):
Yeah. Very often we’ll first hear no. And we have to be very persistent and focus on being very persuasive. So often I want to go in and just kind of grab them by the shoulders and be like, how can you not see the harms that you’re perpetuating in this circumstance or that circumstance? But we go in and try to just be very persuasive. We show them research. We bring survivor stories and we’re persistent. We keep showing up. We are a little bit like an annoying gnat in their ear.

And I remember there was one call, and I believe it was with Google around this issue with Google Play where we were kind of debating, butting heads a little bit. They were pushing back on us. And then eventually one of them turned to us and said, “Well, at the end of the day, we’re parents too, and we are concerned about what our children are exposed to online also.” And I think whenever we can find those moments when we’re just connecting as humans and certainly they don’t want sexual exploitation to be rampant on their site, that’s usually a breaking through point in those conversations.

Dr. Jeff Myers (32:37):
And then I assume that the International Center on Sexual Exploitation, when a company does make a good decision that you publicize that, that they feel like they’re, I’m sure they feel like they’re under attack a lot. Yeah. But then you bring out that this is a victory. Thank you to this company for taking this step to protect women and children.

Haley McNamara (33:01):
Yes, definitely. We have a campaign that actually people can get involved in if they’re interested. Dirtydozenlist.com where we name 12 mainstream companies every year that we believe are facilitating sexual exploitation and abuse. And we give people a chance to send an email to that company or to contact them on social media.That’s another way that we get in the door very often. I know with Hilton Worldwide who used to allow on-demand pornography in their rooms, and now they’re in the process of phasing that out.

They at one point received, we’re receiving a thousand emails a day from people just through these forms on our website. And they actually reached out to us and said, “What can we do to make this stop?” And it got us that meeting that led to that ultimate victory, which is really incredible. So that’s amazing. But then when they do make that kind of change, we do try to celebrate every little win, even if it isn’t as complete as what we want it to be.

(34:06):
I would love to work myself out of a job and for there to be no sexual exploitation and abuse in the world, but until that day comes, I’m going to just celebrate every inch that we get.

Dr. Jeff Myers (34:19):
Yeah. Tell us that website again that was Dirty Dozen?

Haley McNamara (34:23):
List. DirtyDozenList.com.

Dr. Jeff Myers (34:24):
DirtyDozenList.com. Okay. So that’s a practical thing that people can do that will help them be difference makers, tell their own.

Haley McNamara (34:39):
Yeah, it makes such a big difference. And sometimes people will ask, “Well, why would you go after companies? Why don’t you just try to change the laws?” And our organization also tries to change the laws and we have a law center that represents survivors in lawsuits against mainstream companies that have facilitated their abuse. So we also need to be present there, but these companies impact so many people’s lives.

And that Hilton Worldwide, as an example, I remember later on we heard from a survivor who’s being sex trafficked in a Hilton hotel and very often the sex buyers would bring her into the room and then turn on pornography and make her reenact it in the course of her being trafficked. And she said that when she was brought into one of those rooms and realized that Hilton no longer sold that material directly, she thought maybe someone out there actually cared about women like her if the company was no longer profiting from and normalizing this thing that was used in the course of her exploitation.

(35:46):
So these companies have such a big impact. And so all of those individuals who just took the two seconds to send a form email to Hilton helped give this survivor a moment where she realized that there was help out there for her.

Dr. Jeff Myers (36:04):
Wow. I’m sure there are a lot of resources out here. And I’m thinking of two questions I want to ask just because I want to put these in the show notes. If a person somehow is watching this or listening to this and realizes that they may be exploited, they’re being exploited at this time, where can they turn for help?

Haley McNamara (36:38):
Well, certainly if there’s anyone in your trusted circle that you can reach out to, that’s very important. There is a national human trafficking hotline that can be called, and I believe they can also be texted. I’ll send you the, I don’t have it memorized, I should, but I’ll send you that to put in the show notes, as well as contacting law enforcement.

But then there’s so many additional survivor resources, such as sextradesurvivorresources.com actually lists a large number, especially for people who are adults who are trafficked. Many resources, people that they can contact to get food, a place to stay, job training. So I’ll send you that website as well.

Dr. Jeff Myers (37:26):
Great. Okay. Well, we will put those in the show notes. For anybody who might be in that position or anybody who’s concerned that they might know people who are in that position. But on the other side of this as well, I know that you mentioned that 93% of college students said that they had been exposed to pornography before they even got to be teenagers, pre-pubescent. So I’m sure there are a lot of people who are maybe addicted to pornography now and maybe they’re finding themselves coming around to be the exploiter. Is there any help for someone who’s in that situation to get free?

Haley McNamara (38:14):
Yes. There’s so much help. And I think this is like a really complex dynamic because one thing I really want to say is that I have so much empathy for people who struggle with pornography. Odds are they were exposed as children and that’s something that, pornography is something that the human brain was literally not developed to understand. Our ancestors, even just a hundred years ago, were never exposed to the kind of limitless, high speed internet pornography that we have now.

And the impacts on the brain are really serious, including impaired impulse control and escalation into either volume or extremity of pornography that originally were not of interest to the person. And there’s a large amount of research showing this. And I can send you a link that you can put in the show notes to some research summaries for those that are interested. So I want to say I have so much empathy for people who really struggle with this.

(39:17):
And in many ways, I believe that the pornography industry is kind of a mega predator that they’re seeking out, especially young people, to become early adopters of pornography use and to become hooked onto it from young ages. So that’s really important to recognize. And then it’s also important to recognize that the pornography industry is exploiting its performers and vast amounts of research has shown that people in the pornography industry who are performers typically enter into it because of economic insecurity and they leave it with economic insecurity. They don’t get rich during it.

Most people only last about three months in the industry and they have mental health problems worse than the average population and are more likely to have been sexually abused as children as well, more likely to experience health and mental health trauma from being in the industry. And we also know that many of these mainstream sites have been caught facilitating child sexual abuse materials, sex trafficking, sexual assaults, and other non-consensual videos on their platforms.

(40:38):
And I’m talking the most mainstream, huge Walmart or Amazon version of pornography websites that people think are very quote unquote “safe,” I guess, have been caught facilitating literal sexual exploitation in addition to the exploitation that they inflict on other performers. So it’s important for people to realize that you can’t know that what you’re watching is consensual or not. So that’s something to keep in mind, but there are so many resources for recovery from this.

And Covenant Eyes, again, is a really great one that I would recommend to people, but also really just the biggest thing that I would say for recovery is talking to someone about it. And this is addiction very often that exists in the shadows and in shame. And so it’s if you can break down that shame and just be honest and talk to someone else in your life and then begin to identify what the triggers are for you that lead you to go there.

(41:49):
And very often it’s from a place of hurt or a place of past trauma or just not being able to cope with stress or these other things that can happen in life. So by figuring out what those triggers are, it can also help you learn more about yourself and can help you slowly disentangle yourself from the industry.

Dr. Jeff Myers (42:13):
Wow. This has been so incredible. I think I sense hope for parents and for children, for people who are being victimized, but also people who are addicted to pornography. There’s been so much that’s been life giving in this conversation and thank you. And just in closing, I just wonder if you have any thoughts as somebody who’s making a difference in this area, what’s your word to this rising generation?

Haley McNamara (42:50):
Be brave and speak the truth. And it might not always be popular. In fact, usually the truth is not popular, but it can have incredible ramifications when you do it. And just being brave enough to get yourself into the room. I always think of myself as this Midwest girl and who am I to be meeting with Google or these different companies, but the reason that I’m there is just because I’m willing to say it how it is and there’s so much good to be done.

The world really needs people who in whatever area they’re called to, to stand up and to just take that first action. You don’t need to meet with Google right away, just attend an event, get connected with people who share your passions and build up your skillsets that you’re naturally gifted at. And it’s just incredible what God can do with it.

Dr. Jeff Myers (43:47):
I’ve been looking forward to talking with you and having this show for so long. I’m so glad that we’ve been able to connect and looking forward to getting this out to as many people as possible. Haley, thank you for being part of the Dr. Jeff Show today.

Haley McNamara (44:00):
Well, thanks so much for having me. And everyone should attend Summit.

Dr. Jeff Myers (44:04):
Thank you. Yes, yes. Thank you for joining us on the Dr. Jeff Show today. We heard about the pervasiveness of sexual sin in the world, and a lot of this content is really disturbing, but I hope that you also found it to be very practical. Please check out the show notes to find the information about things that you can do. And if you are interested in knowing more about Haley McNamara’s group, please follow her on Twitter @HaleyMcNamara and her website for the organization is called endsexualexploitation.org.

The desires that dominate and dehumanize other people sexually are ever present in our world and they result in trafficking and abuse and in pornography, but there is healing. There is a way to leave that life and to become who God created us to be, to hold exploiters accountable, to rescue and restore victims of these horrendous actions. So please check out those websites and the other things that are in the show notes and to contribute to this organization that helps so many people move toward freedom.

(45:16):
Wow. May God give us the ability to see suffering and to be the one to stand up and say no to what is going on in the world around us when it’s wrong. Thank you for watching the show today.

Ryan Dobson (45:34):
Hi everyone. I’m Ryan Dobson from the Rebel Parenting Podcast. When my parents, Jim and Shirley Dobson sent me to the Summit Ministries Worldview Conference when I was 17, we had no idea the impact it would have on my life. It changed me so much in two short weeks. I’ve returned every summer for 34 years. This summer, your student can attend an in- person conference. That’s right, in person.

Summit Ministry’s Worldview Conference challenges students ages 16 to 24 to think deeper about their convictions and their faith by engaging with today’s top worldview thinkers and apologists. Can you imagine in person with other students learning about the Christian worldview? If not, they can attend Summit’s virtual experience and it’s amazing. Change your students’ life forever by partnering with Summit Ministries Worldview Conference today. Find out more by clicking the link in the show notes.