10 Historic Finds That Bring Us Face-to-Face with Jesus w/ Jeremiah Johnston | Ep. 46, Pt. 1

Episode 46: Summary & Transcript

Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Episode Summary

This episode of the Upside Down Parenting Podcast features Dr. Jeremiah Johnston explaining how his book The Jesus Discoveries uses ten archaeological finds to show Jesus as a real person in history. It can be used as a resource to help parents answer their kids’ toughest questions about faith with clear, evidence-based explanations. A major focus is the Shroud of Turin, which Dr. Johnston now believes is the authentic burial cloth of Jesus and a powerful “itemized receipt” of God’s love. It offers scientific evidence of the resurrection that has deepened his children’s understanding of passages like Romans 5:8.

Episode Transcript

Janel Greig (00:00):
Today we are diving into a question a lot of our kids are asking: “Is Jesus actually real?” In a world where proof matters more than ever, where our kids are growing up expecting real evidence, how do we talk about faith in a way that’s both honest and compelling?

Our guest today, Dr. Jeremiah Johnston, has spent years exploring that exact tension. In his new book, The Jesus Discoveries: 10 Historic Finds That Bring Us Face To Face with Jesus, he walks through 10 fascinating archeological finds that point to Jesus, not just as a figure of history, but as a real person in history. From ancient artifacts to scientific analysis, he brings together evidence that helps bridge the gap between belief and proof.

If you’ve ever felt unsure how to answer your child’s toughest questions about faith or if you’ve had some of those questions yourself, this conversation is going to give you language, confidence, and maybe even a fresh perspective on what it truly means to encounter Jesus. Jeremiah, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to the Upside Down Parenting Podcast with Matt and I.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:11):
I’m so delighted that you invited me and I’m very excited for this conversation.

Janel Greig (01:16):
Awesome. Well, we’re thrilled to have you. Would you mind framing a little bit for us and our listeners why you decided to write this newest book of yours?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (01:26):
Because there have been so many terrible boring books about archeology and Christianity that they’re great if you have insomnia, terrible if you have teenagers. And if our Christianity is boring, we shouldn’t be surprised if people are bored by it. Now, as you mentioned in that beautiful intro, thank you. I’ve traveled the world. I’ve been to the digs. You’re talking to someone who’s probably been in more first century tombs than anyone else.

(01:52):
I’ve seen the evidence up close and that evidence has changed my life. I have read and lived Acts 1:3, that Jesus presented himself alive with many convincing proofs. And the great thing is I’m a dad of five. I have two teenagers. I have very inquisitive nine-year-old triplet boys. And we believe in family dinner. And I get asked the toughest questions, not from media, not from Russell Brand or whoever else I’m on. I get asked the toughest questions from my five kids.

And the hilarious part, and I hope all the parents out there can identify with this. I have learned that if my answers are more than two minutes, my kids go screensaver on me. You know what I mean? Remember when your mouse just starts bouncing around the screen? I was like, yo, yo, I’m still talking. “Oh, dad, that got really boring.” And so I had to learn as a dad to share crisp answers about the power of Jesus’ life and then why those answers matter.

(02:51):
So I go from context to interpretation to application. Why does any of this matter for my wife who every day lives by the clock of the lineup at school at what time she’s going to be there to pick up the triplets and then get them out the door.

(03:05):
And then for all the moms and dads, why does this matter? And it turns out everything rises and falls on this kind of content. And what I am being blown away, I’ve been doing ministry for a very long time. I’ve never seen a book hit like this and I think it’s scratching where people are itching because it’s right where my kitchen table was itching.

One of my children looked at me and they said, “Dad, dad, dad.” I’m like, “Yes, I’m right here.” They said, “Dad, tell us everything we can know about Jesus, but you can’t use the Bible because my friends say, ‘oh, you’re just using the Bible.’” And I was like, hold my iced cold Diet Coke and let me. And so that’s what I did. I wrote the book, but then what was a lot cooler was I know a lot of these archeologists.

(03:50):
And what’s so fun about the book is throughout the book there’s actual photographs of all of the different discoveries and all different comparisons, probabilities. And then I talk about, I did more work probably on the editing than I’ve ever done. I think the Lord’s allowed me to write like 15 or 20 books, a study Bible, but this one has the best as far as, why does this even matter?

Why does knowing this discovery help me right now? And I just kept going back to that dinner conversation of, dad, what can we know about Jesus? Don’t use the Bible and why does it matter? And it turns out we can flex as Christians because we know a lot about Jesus thanks to the evidence.

Dr. Matt Jones (04:30):
That’s a great start. And I would agree, man. You have some great stuff in this book and we don’t want to give too much of it away, but the Shroud of Turin is how you start. And first of all, why’d you start with the Shroud of Turin? And then tell us a little bit for our audience who may not know, what is it? Why has it captured so much attention over the years?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (04:50):
We have scientific evidence of the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus in an artifact that dates back to probably April 5th, 8033, if not earlier when Arimythea purchased it. Sounds too good to be true. I know. I was a complete skeptic myself. I did my PhD on the resurrection in England.

I’ve published 300,000 words on the resurrection and I have never mentioned this artifact called the Shroud of Turin until The Jesus Discoveries because it took me years to investigate it. I thought it was a relic. I thought it was superstitious magical thinking until I actually bothered to get beyond the soundbites and get into the science.

(05:35):
When I say, “I get into the science,” y’all, I went to Israel, I went to Turin, Italy, I met with physicists, I met with mathematicians, I met with hematologists, I met with men who were complete skeptics of this artifact. So the Shroud of Turin, just for the parents out there and the teens listening.

Dr. Matt Jones (05:54):
Thank you.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (05:55):
We believe that we have essentially the sheet, the grave clothes that wrapped the body of Jesus in the tomb after he was crucified. That’s not totally that unique because we have lots of shrouds from Jerusalem, but this shroud, if you look at it today, it almost looks like a dirty sheet. It has the front and back image of a crucified man that matches the torment that Jesus went through and what he went through on the cross.

So we have an image of a crucified man and I started studying this and then I would share with my son Justin, who I want to say was 11 at the time. He’s 14 now going on 18. He’s grown about 10 inches since then. I’m at a 6:30 AM Bible study that I was teaching. My pastor Jag Graham was so awesome. He said, “Hey, just share what you’re learning.” And I was like, “Pastor, I don’t know.”

(06:49):
“I’m an academic.” He’s like, “Just do it however you’re comfortable.” You can find the YouTube out there where I’m like, “No, I’m not going to risk my academic reputation on this, but let me just share with you, by the hand, what I’ve been learning.” And I look down, you guys and this is a 6:30 AM Bible study, okay? And my son is so locked in and he’s like, “Dad, I never realized Jesus loved me that much.”

(07:16):
So when you realize what Jesus went through, it becomes, as one of my friends says, an itemized receipt, the shroud is of how much God loves us. It’s scientific proof of the moment of resurrection. And I now believe that the shroud is authentically Jesus’ burial clothes because I’m not irrational, because I’ve looked at all the scientific studies. And then I see that it’s become one of the greatest evangelism tools I’ve ever seen.

It’s also become a discipleship tool because my children now can tell you in much greater detail what Romans five: eight really means. But God demonstrated his love for me and that when Christ died or that when we were sinners, he sent Christ to die for us. They can explain what that demonstration was. And so that’s the gain of it is you realize, wow, God loves him. It should have been my head in that crown of thorns.

(08:11):
It should have been my arms and wrists that were nailed to the cross. No, but God said, no, God sent his best for me when we were at our worst. And so that’s quite the shroud. I think it’s the most lied about artifact. It’s the most contested artifact, but it’s also the most studied artifact in the world. So it’s a fascinating mystery.

Dr. Matt Jones (08:33):
So what was kind of the convincing component for you? Because for me it’s saying, wait a minute, there’s no way this could have been fabricated in terms of the impression it leaves and the suggestion that light caused it as Jesus is raised by the Father from the dead. What’s the most convincing component for you for the shroud?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (08:53):
Well, there’s two answers to that. One is what convinced me first to go from being a skeptic? What do I think is the most compelling information now? What convinced me to go from total skeptic, I mean, I make fun of the shroud on a couple of YouTubes. I’m embarrassed by it now, but we’re all on a journey, aren’t we? And we should always take transparency to be like, “I was wrong. I’m still growing in Christ. I’m a lifelong learner.”

But I had a very Oxford highbrow response on Sean McDowell’s episode where I said, “Oh, I deal in evidence. Next question.” I had some arrogant answer like that, and boy was I wrong. And so I called up Barry Schwartz because I really believe in having conversations with scholars and checking things out for myself.

(09:37):
Barry Schwartz, who’s now dead, did the TED Talk on the Shroud of Turin. And so I called him at his house, he answered the phone. We spent hours in dialogue where he explained to me that the greatest scientists in the world, and I said, “Well, what do you mean by that?” He said, “Scientists who are rocket scientists, they work on the atom bombs. They’re from Los Alamos Labs, Sandia Labs. They’re from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.”

“I was with them in Turin studying the shroud. We were all having drinks in the hotel lobby giggling about, give us 15 minutes and the scientific method and we will prove the shroud as a hoax.” And he said, “Jeremiah, nobody was giggling the first day. They literally got cots out and slept by the shroud.” So that is what for me took me out of my skepticism into believing that it’s authentic.

(10:34):
But now what’s most powerful to me is what we’re learning about this image itself. And you hit the nail on the head, Matt, the image, it’s unreproducible. It’s 0.02 microns. And just for the benefit of teenagers or parents who are watching, if you took one thread of your hair out of your head and you divided up one fifth of that, that’s how thin or superficial the image of the shroud is.

(10:59):
We cannot replicate that because if it was anything stronger than that, it would’ve just burned right through or what we say scorched the shroud. And my area, a PhD knows a lot about a little. I’m a historical Jesus PhD, so I know a lot about the historical Jesus. And what’s fascinating is when you read the Bible and you see that every time Jesus manifests himself, he manifests himself in brilliant light. Think of Mark 9, the transfiguration.

(11:25):
Think of Revelation. There will be no need for the sun. Think of Acts, is it 26, where Paul gives his testimony and he said, “I saw a light brighter than the noonday sun.” And then, what do we see is this residual evidence on the shroud. We see the moment that Jesus is resurrected.

And Paolo de Lazaro, my friend, the physicist, said it would’ve taken, as I write in the book, 34 billion watts of energy, but the kicker is the speed, one 40th of a billionth of a second. And so we’re looking at a power that is resurrection power. And I don’t know if I wrote this in the book or not because I’m still learning. Romans 8:11 says the same power that raised Jesus from the bed dwells in every believer.

(12:10):
And I feel like we need to step into that power that he’s given to us a lot more and for all the problems we face as parents and as believers. So that’s what took me from my skepticism, but then, I think, the light and I talk about that in the book, and I have an interview on my YouTube channel with him and it’s just fascinating. I think that that light probably pushed the stone away. It was a light that, and by the way, that’s three to four times the amount of energy we have on earth.

Dr. Matt Jones (12:40):
So I just want to say, folks, if you are listening, the book itself is worth just the first chapter because it is so, I’m not saying don’t read the rest, Jeremiah, but the first chapter, because I teach synoptic gospels where I work and my students are even skeptical and don’t even know about the shroud at a Christian university. And so I informed them of it and I probably am going to have them read this first chapter and say, okay, in the future. So thank you for writing it so well and so convincingly. Janel, I’m sorry. I had to throw in that plug.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (13:12):
I’m glad you said that. We have to send the clip to my publisher because they wanted me to kind of pare down the, and I love them like family, but they’re like, “Oh, we think there’s just too much on the shroud.” So my original chapter is about twice as long.

Dr. Matt Jones (13:24):
Okay.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (13:25):
But maybe I’ll leave that. It’s always good to leave something for a follow-up book. So we have three terms for burial. In the synoptics, it’s always sindōn. In John, we get othonia and soudarion, and I talk about that. So that would be a great time for you to talk about with your synoptic gospel students. Why does John use two additional words? And I talk about that in the book.

Dr. Matt Jones (13:47):
That’s great. Thank you.

Janel Greig (13:49):
That’s great. Jeremiah, throughout your book, throughout these 10 examples that you’re providing, you emphasize over and over that Christianity is rooted in real history, real people, real places, real events.

For our parents that are listening that are trying to help their kids see faith as something credible and grounded, like you say, kind of stepping away from the Bible, which is credible, can you share a few specific examples of how archeology actually confirms that biblical narrative, maybe outside of not including the shroud since we’ve already talked about that.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (14:20):
Right. And let’s take a step back and really help our parents and the students listening. We have an evidenced-based faith and I have to keep saying that because I have my air war game, which are all these podcasts I do, and then we’ve got a tour crossing the nation and now international. I spoke at the World Economic Forum in Davos. I’ll be back next year. That’s my ground game.

And sometimes I will meet very well-meaning Christians and believers and these are fine Christians and they will look at me and they’ll say, “I have my Bible. I don’t need archeology. I don’t need Christ. I believe.”

And these are great Christians and I have to take a minute and just say, “Wait a minute, wait a minute. There’s 138,000 words in the Greek New Testament. Not a single word of the Greek New Testament would’ve been written had those early witnesses not had proof that Jesus was alive. I can guarantee you that.” And so let’s make sure mom and dad or teenagers listening, that when we talk about our faith, we don’t use these touchy feely.

(15:30):
Yes, we love God with our heart and soul, but we also love them with our mind. And Christian faith is based on content, facts of the gospel, the person of Jesus. And so if we have proof that underscores the facts of the gospel and the person of Jesus, that’s evidence for why we believe that concept. Does that make sense? Does that help? Absolutely. Yeah.

So archeology shouldn’t be a sidebar thing for just a few Delta Force Christians in our church. It should be for every mom and dad to say, unlike any other religion in the world, Christianity says, test our faith against what really happened, not your feelings, not your emotions which are up or down at any given moment. No, our faith is what we believe and what we believe is based on evidence. And so that’s what I’ve really tried to help people explain.

(16:24):
That’s why when I share these discoveries, this is just stacking another brick in the wall of your faith in what you believe and why you believe it. And I think that’s why this content has been captured by so many people. We’re tired of the fluff. We’re tired of, and listen, I love a good cry. I mean, I love a dad cry. I mean, I love a great cry. There’s nothing I love more.

Dr. Matt Jones (16:48):
Time out. What’s the last thing that caused you to dad cry? Can we ask that?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (16:54):
Well, The Chosen probably.

Dr. Matt Jones (16:56):
Oh, okay. Yeah. Oh man. Whenever Matthew forgives his parents, I know that’s an older one, and they reconcile. Oh, I am just weeping.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (17:07):
And the second episode or the second season, when he does the pool of Bethesda when he keeps. Dad cried everywhere. I cried when my daughter went to homecoming.

Dr. Matt Jones (17:22):
Sorry to interrupt. I just had to get that in there, Jeremiah.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (17:25):
I totally lost my train of thought now. I was totally on a roll. Our faith is based on evidence. Sean Ryan, when I was on his podcast, he said, “Isn’t it just about faith? I mean, why do we need proof?” I was like, “Because we’re not better than the first eyewitnesses.” And there was no Bible. People don’t understand this.

The Bible is, we know, I mean, this was an oral culture. Only two million men in the Roman Empire could read. This is why Paul is passing on the kerygma in 1 Corinthians 15 that he’s delivering what was given them. This is why we have a Philippians 2 Christ hymn. People were committing, this was an oral culture. No one could go buy, the first three generations of Christian faith couldn’t go buy a New Testament. They, maybe, heard letters, they may have heard the public reading of scripture.

(18:10):
That’s why the public reading of scriptures talked about. And so that’s why we have to know these things. And so guess what the net result is? This is so great. The net result is I become more comfortable in every faith conversation I have.

(18:23):
I’m a better listener with my kids. I’m a better listener with students that come to my house because, I just had a bunch of guys over before they went to a country music concert. That’s what we do down here in Texas. We go to country concerts.

And he asked me a question, I forget what it was now, but I was able to give an evidential answer and he said, “You’re the first person who’s answered that. I feel so much better now.” And I honestly can’t even remember what the question was, but we should all be prepared to say no. The Bible’s about, as you said, Janel, real people, real places, real events.

Dr. Matt Jones (18:56):
And so when we think about that, besides your insightful book and your YouTube video, are there a couple other resources that parents might find helpful to demonstrate this connectivity between archeology and scripture and the life of Christ?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (19:12):
Well, absolutely. I mean, we live in the golden age of apologetics right now and you should know that work. There are so many different great resources. We have an abundance. This is what kills me in a way. We go to ChatGPT or Google instead of God’s word now when we get a really tough question and that should not be the case.

And so I think that we are blessed with an abundance of resources. I use Logos Bible software like in Bellingham, Washington where they’re based. I’ve used them since 2009 and my daughter has an account. I mean, there’s no excuse, but I’ll tell you something that’s blowing me away is how many people don’t read ever.

(19:53):
They haven’t read a book since high school. And so we have to at some level not let people outthink us. We can learn from everyone, but no one should outthink us. And I had a really cool testimony Sunday of a guy who’s never read a book, and he read Jesus Discoveries. Well, I shouldn’t say he never has, but he said he hasn’t like what seemed like decades. He said, I felt like Jesus was in the room with me when I was reading.

So some of this is on us. Get a book and read it. Just start there and one will lead to two and then you’ll start the Bible should be insatiable. And of course, reading the scripture, memorizing it, reading it publicly and truly going on Bible land trips. I mean now anymore, I’ve traveled so much that unless I can take one of my kids with me to experience it, I’m really not interested in going.

(20:48):
But I just took our daughter on a trip to all the places that Paul went, and it just made the faith come alive. And so did it cost money? Sure. Was it worth it? Absolutely. My daughter’s all in these places. So I mean, we have to be able to invest time and money and effort and watching these kinds of great podcasts like you’re putting out there and just stop binging everything.

Janel Greig (21:14):
Yeah, that’s great. Jeremiah, can we move into, we have a fun little segment we call the speed round. Yeah, I love that. And it’s just so we get to know you a little bit, our listeners get to know you a little bit. The only rule for this, the only guideline is your answer has to be as short as possible. You just got to throw it at us. So if you’re ready for that, Matt and I will just take turns throwing some questions at you.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (21:37):
Ready for it.

Janel Greig (21:38):
Okay. Go-to road trip snack?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (21:43):
Beef jerky.

Dr. Matt Jones (21:44):
Beef jerky. Okay. Favorite movie? Favorite movie you can watch over and over.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (21:49):
Gladiator.

Dr. Matt Jones (21:53):
What you do here echoes in eternity. I share that with my students all the time. It matters. It matters. Okay.

Janel Greig (22:00):
All right. Best parenting advice that you’ve ever received?

Dr. Matt Jones (22:05):
Besides, “Listen to the Upside Down Parenting Podcast.”

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (22:09):
Pray with your children as much as possible.

Janel Greig (22:12):
Great.

Dr. Matt Jones (22:12):
Good. All right. If your life had a theme song, what would it be?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (22:18):
Wow. That is so good. Trying to think of an appropriate one. Hold on. That’s fair. Probably Charity Gayle’s, what’s her song called, about the blood of Christ? That’s so good. It’s one of Charity Gayle’s worship songs. I could listen to it all day every day about the blood of Jesus.

Janel Greig (22:42):
All right. Favorite way to unwind after a long day?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (22:46):
Listen to country music.

Dr. Matt Jones (22:48):
All right. Well, can I ask, favorite country song that describes your life right now?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (22:52):
I’m not going to say it. Okay.

Dr. Matt Jones (22:54):
All right. All right. Sounds good.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (22:56):
I might get negatively, there’s someone out, there’s something in one of these lyrics that…

Dr. Matt Jones (23:00):
That’s true. Okay. That’s fair. All right.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (23:02):
I did, though, I did take my wife to a Bailey Zimmerman concert. We had the greatest date of our lives. I mean, he spoke there and gave the gospel. I love Morgan Wallen. Oh wow. He goes to a church I just preached at in Nashville. So pretty much, I’m the Problem by Morgan Wallen. That’s what Audrey says.

Dr. Matt Jones (23:21):
Well, I feel like in your book you’re solving quite a few problems, so thank you. All right. How’s that for kissing up? Pretty good?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (23:28):
Yeah.

Dr. Matt Jones (23:29):
All right. Favorite board game or family game?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (23:35):
We don’t do that. We honestly don’t.

Dr. Matt Jones (23:37):
I was going to say, with triplets, I don’t know how you get through it.

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (23:40):
My daughter does this Secret Hitler game with her friends. I don’t know anything about it, but we don’t really do that. We do more sports stuff.

Dr. Matt Jones (23:49):
Okay, cool.

Janel Greig (23:51):
All right. What’s your hidden talent, Jeremiah?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (23:53):
Riding motorcycles.

Janel Greig (23:55):
Oh, cool.

Dr. Matt Jones (23:56):
All right, cool. One last one. And then if your kids described you in three words, what would they say?

Dr. Jeremiah Johnston (24:04):
Gosh. Well, it depends what day you would ask. Amazing, stud, the greatest of all time.

Dr. Matt Jones (24:11):
Oh, wow. Okay. All right. Amazing, stud, the greatest of all time. Wow. You are the goat, Jeremiah. Yeah. That’s great.

Well, that ends part one of our conversation with Dr. Jeremiah Johnston. He has just written the book, The Jesus Discoveries, and we would strongly, strongly encourage you not only to read the book, but also check out the second half of our podcast where we gain more insight and more direction in terms of parents and how they can invest in their children to better understand not only the importance of apologetics, but where that can begin and what direction they can go in to help their kids build a faith that’s based on evidence and not just faith alone. Thank you for joining us. We look forward to part two.