What Does the Bible Say About Technology? w/ Ryan Pauly | Ep. 63

Episode 63: Summary & Transcript

Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Episode Summary

In a world saturated with smartphones, social media, and artificial intelligence, Christian parents need more than rules – they need a framework. Ryan Pauly, founder of Think Well and professor at Biola University’s Talbot School of Theology, joins the Upside Down Parenting Podcast to help families build a robust biblical worldview of technology. From the doctrine of creation to the dangers of digital isolation, this conversation equips parents with the tools to raise children who think deeply, love relationally, and steward technology wisely.

Episode Transcript

Dr. Matt Jones (00:00):
Technology is shaping nearly every part of our children’s lives. From smartphones and social media to video games and artificial intelligence, our kids are growing up in a technology saturated world. But before we can help our kids navigate these technologies wisely, we need to step back and ask a bigger question. What is a biblical worldview of technology? Is technology simply a neutral tool? Is it something we should embrace, something we should fear, or something that God has called us to steward wisely?

Today, we’re continuing our special series on raising kids in a technology saturated world, and we’re joined by Ryan Pauly to help us develop a biblical worldview of technology. Ryan is the founder and president of Think Well. He’s got the t-shirt there showing that, or the polo showing that, the director of immersive experiences at Maven and a professor at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University.

(00:57):
He has spent years helping students and families think carefully about faith, culture, and some of the biggest questions facing Christians today. Ryan, it’s great to meet you and have you join us today. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, I think I said that. How are you doing today?

Ryan Pauly (01:14):
I’m doing well. It’s good to be here, good to join you. I’m adjusting to being back home in California. We actually spent three weeks in Colorado, two of which were serving at Summit Ministries. And so it’s always a fun way to end the summer, but now I’m back and at the grind of a new semester.

Dr. Matt Jones (01:28):
Yeah. And he does what they call faculty and residence there at Summit. And he does, from what I’ve been told, a great job interacting with students and being available to answer questions. So Ryan, thanks for joining us above and beyond your time at Summit.

So when we hear the word technology, most of us immediately think about smartphones, social media, or even that big thing called AI. But what actually is technology and how should Christians think about it from a biblical worldview?

Ryan Pauly (01:58):
All right. Well, that’s so important. And I think most times people are thinking of digital technologies where we have an emerging field of complex, highly intelligent machines that are programmed to achieve certain goals and tasks, applying knowledge to that sort of task. And so we have artificial intelligence that is gathering massive amounts of information and recommending movies to you on Netflix or answering questions through your Alexa and Siri, or even writing papers for you with ChatGPT and Claude and these other sorts of technologies. And so that’s often what we think of.

More broadly, technology. I love how John Dyer wrote it in his book From the Garden to the City, defining technology as any human activity using a tool to transform God’s creation. And so that in a sense, a shovel is a form of technology. A hammer is technology. And so we can think of more broadly using tools to influence and manipulate God’s world as well as in the digital technologies that we are often surrounded with today.

Dr. Matt Jones (03:00):
Yeah. And with that definition, it’s very clear technology is something that is addressed a ton in the Bible. So I’m looking forward to developing that idea of a biblical worldview of technology. Now, we hear that technology is simply a neutral tool and that what matters is how we use it. Is technology really neutral?

Ryan Pauly (03:22):
Well, yeah, that means a lot of how we want to define neutral. And I think when I ask audiences, is technology neutral? Of the hands that go up and say yes, I say, “What do you mean by that? Why do you think it’s neutral?” And the number one answer is because you can use it for good or for bad. And so it just sits there and because you can use it for good or bad, therefore it is neutral in and of itself.

However, we recognize that that is only one question and one thing to consider when using new technologies is how you use it. We recognize that technologies actually have a massively transformative shaping potential on us, whether you use it for good or bad. They shape us mentally, spiritually, physically, and emotionally. And so you can think of something, again, simple like a shovel as a basic form of technology.

(04:11):
The fact that you use a shovel is actually transforming the world as you’re moving dirt from one place to another, but it also has an effect on you. Since it is a tool that you are using, using that shovel builds up your blood pressure, it causes calluses on your hands. And so it does have that sort of effect, whether you’re using it for good or bad, digging a hole depending on what you want to put into that hole.

And again, I think a big one that is relevant to me here today, it’s like 104 degrees here in California. The technology of air conditioning is amazing. I’m incredibly blessed, incredibly happy, and I’m using my air conditioning for good purposes.

However, that technology does have a shaping influence on even just community. And do you know your neighbors? And I remember writing a portion of a chapter on this and went outside and I saw a neighbor for the first time I hadn’t seen in three months, and all the kids go outside and play, and I said, “Hey, where have you been?” And he goes, “Wow, it’s been too hot.”

(05:05):
“We’ve been inside soaking up the air conditioning.” And that’s just very different from when I lived overseas in the Dominican Republic. No one had air conditioning. When it was really hot, everyone was out on the streets, you knew your neighbors. And so it does have a sort of shaping potential. We know this when phones are sitting on the table, they go beyond whether you’re just simply using it for good or bad. And so no, I don’t think in that sense technology is neutral.

Dr. Matt Jones (05:27):
Okay, thank you. And it’s interesting you bring up the air conditioning because that didn’t even occur to me. So how do we go about recognizing? Because it does. Air conditioning keeps us inside. We don’t get to interact with people. There’s other reasons I don’t go outside and interact with people, but air conditioning is one of them. And so I’m just curious, how do you go about recognizing that impact? Because sometimes we’re just blinded to it.

Ryan Pauly (05:55):
Yeah. Well, I think it’s also just being aware of it. So again, me doing all this research and writing on technology is making me think about this stuff in ways I haven’t before. And then I’m having conversations with parents.

And I remember talking to one dad, another neighbor of mine, and I said, “Hey, I see two daughters always out here playing. These are your two daughters that you have?” He goes, “No, I have an oldest daughter, but she never comes out of her bedroom.” I said, “Why?” “Well, she’s got AC, she’s got heater, she’s got a TV and she’s got a phone. Why would she?”

And I think that’s the reality is we recognize air conditioning, wonderful, but it does leave people not needing to go outside for natural air conditioning when it’s hot and you get secluded to your house. The heater is the same thing, central heating.

(06:34):
Now the family on cold winter nights doesn’t have to huddle around the fireplace in the living room to all stay warm, which is a family bonding time. Now everyone has heat in their bedrooms and now with phones and computers and TVs, why leave the bedroom? Yeah, why leave it? So that sort of thing is just that massively shaping potential that you start to see. And I think it sometimes is hard.

Here’s another story. So actually it was a couple years ago when I was doing the main research on this topic, I flew out to Colorado to spend some time at Summit Ministries. But before we went down to Summit, my family, I was born and raised just north of Summit in Northern Colorado. So we went to visit my parents and my parents took us up on their boat on the lake. And my son jumps off the boat, he’s playing on the shore, throwing rocks in the water.

(07:19):
My other son, it’s time for his nap time. So I put him on a carrier on my chest and he falls asleep. And the first thought I had was, man, I wish I had my Kindle. I have research to do. And then I thought, ah, bummer. And I went, oh wait, I have a Kindle app on my phone. I can read.

And so I pull out my phone and I open up a book by Nicholas Carr titled The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains. And I flip it open to the part where I left off and it says, we have actually gotten to the point where our brain actually starts craving constant input to where we cannot take a break and we cannot put it down. And it hit me all of a sudden. I was like, here I am in beautiful Colorado on a lake and my son falls asleep.

(08:01):
And my first thought is, how can I maximize my time and research something good? I was doing something good rather than looking around, enjoying the beautiful creation that God had made, enjoying watching my son play in the water, and I just put my phone down. I was like, I need a break.

And so I think it’s some of those things where you kind of start to just become aware of how often it’s happening. And even sometimes having a good spouse like mine, they’d be like, “Hey, why are you on your phone right now?” To make us aware of really how much this technology is shaping us and the attention we’re giving to our kids as well as how involved and even present we are when we’re around other people.

Dr. Matt Jones (08:40):
Yeah. And I think that’s important because I grew up and we didn’t have these. I don’t know your age yet, Ryan, so maybe I’ll ask that at some point, but it’s interesting. I used to fill my gaps in time with prayer and now I fill it with, oh, my ESPN app, are the Cubs losing to the Brewers right now?

And so what am I filling those gaps with? And so that’s a really good story. I appreciate you pointing that out. So Ryan, scripture begins with God as Creator and humans are uniquely created in his image. How should our identity as image bearers who also create shape the way we think about this technology?

Ryan Pauly (09:21):
Yeah. Well, I think there’s a couple big points and maybe I’ll highlight some of the big ones and we can dive into some. But number one is, doctrine of creation shows us God is Creator. We are not. We are creation. And I think one of the temptations of technology is believing that we are more powerful than we really are, that we don’t need God. We can solve these sorts of issues on our own. And so we have to recognize that no matter how advanced technology gets, we are still creation. God is still Creator and he is sovereign overall.

And I think you also mentioned, though, our identity. And there’s something fundamental about us as humans that we are created both body and soul. There’s an immaterial part of us as well as a physical part of us. And that is one thing that sets us fundamentally different apart from technology is that all modern AI and machine learning is getting better and better at mimicking humans, but we’ll never be able to do what humans can do.

(10:15):
There is never going to be the thought behind the action. There’s processing, but your Alexa or Siri is not thinking, it is not deciding, it is not doing those sort of actions that humans can do. And so even the way that we speak about technology as if we give it sort of human characteristics of thinking and doing things that God created humans to do, I think starts to create that blend, that line of what makes us fundamentally different than the technology that we use.

I think one other thing I think is important to hit on with the doctrine of creation is that we recognize at the end of creation, God rested. And the question I often ask students in groups is how often do you rest from technology or do we actually keep technology from or use technology to keep us from resting? We have overcome these sorts of limitations and I think that’s one temptation, the more powerful we get with AI is believing that any barrier is a result of the fall and something that we should break through and try to overcome.

(11:19):
And that’s where technology is good. I’m wearing contacts right now because we have learned to overcome an effect of the fall and allow my bad broken eyes to be able to see you clearly again. That’s a beautiful use of technology.

However, when we start to think that all barriers are a result of the fall and something that should be broken through or overcome with technology, that’s where the problem is rather than recognizing that some barriers and limitations are actually God-given designed features.

And so we have to see rest as one of those design features of sunrise and sunset is how do we actually get a break from this sort of technology? And so that’s at least one way in which I think Genesis does start to speak into how we see ourselves, the technology we use, and even how we start to steward it well.

Dr. Matt Jones (12:01):
Well, that’s one of the things we’ve talked about is, limits are good. I mean there’s a place and God has designed limits. I am curious as a parent and helping our parents think through ways to rest, what are some ways you found it effective for resting from technology?

Ryan Pauly (12:18):
Yeah. Well, I think for me, it’s just having limits. I’m not great at this. I’m in the same boat with a lot of people and students. So I have limits on my phone with one hour of social media or I block it on the weekend because my job is so social media intensive that I don’t have it available on Saturday or Sunday. It is completely blocked on my phone and my wife has the password, so I can’t even access it if I wanted to.

And I think this is again just saying, what values do you have? I was talking with a deconstructed Christian, now atheist, and he asked me a question on Saturday morning, and I just responded very quickly online because I’m not using this on the weekend. I said, “Hey, I only have five minutes on the weekend because this is my time with family.”

(13:06):
“I’ll get back to you on Monday.” And his response was like, “Oh, you’re just trying to escape the problem. You’re trying to run from this.” And the whole point is no, I have values that are set. The weekend is for my family, not for more conversations. And as important as this conversation is with this atheist, it’s not more important than my kids. And so do I have those sorts of rhythms and breaks?

Meal times is another one of, how do we have intentional time at meals where phones need to be put away? And so I think kind of creating those values of what do I want to teach, what do I want to learn? And I think screen time is a very common phrase that a lot of parents are using, but sometimes we have a lot of screen time on our children and we don’t often think about our own personal screen time as well.

Dr. Matt Jones (13:48):
Yeah. So you talk a lot about just connect parents and technology and children. You talk a lot about how technology shapes us or the power of technology shapes people. How can technology shape what our children think, love or become even when the content itself isn’t necessarily harmful?

Ryan Pauly (14:09):
Yeah. Well, I think it shapes values. I think a lot about the worldview of technology. And I ask students this question and it’s pretty obvious. And I’ll ask a group of students, I said, “What is technology created for? Why are these technologies created?” It is created for ease, convenience, comfort, immediacy. Those sorts of things are just what is inherently built into technology of just doing things with more ease and whatever.

And those aren’t bad values at all, but what happens when we start to actually see those values, not as just being, hey, this is good to be more comfortable or to get things done quicker, but when we start seeing those as the highest value, what do we lose when we just need everything instantly and we miss out on delayed gratification? What do we miss out on just having everything easy? And again, hopefully parents hear me.

(15:01):
My house right now is a four-year-old, a three-year-old, and an eight-month-old, and I’m working three jobs and I’m getting my doctorate right now. I’m writing my dissertation. So having stuff show up the next day from Amazon is amazing. And being able to do a Target pickup or a Walmart pickup or whatever is really, really good.

But the question I have to ask myself is, what are my children missing out on when that is my main focus? When we don’t go to a grocery store where I can show them around and ask them about what their favorite fruit is and have them talk to a checkout person, what do they miss out on?

Again, I think it was, oh, I forget what author said it, Samuel James maybe, if that’s a name of a person, but in the book Digital Liturgies, where I think he asked the question, “What if these modern technologies are satisfying human comforts, but starving human hearts?” And I think that’s so true and something that we have to be aware of.

(15:58):
And so I think it can shape what your kids think about the purpose of life, who they are, what is actually valuable. I think we’re recognizing a lot of menial tasks can be accomplished and done by AI. And then the question becomes, well, now what is a menial task? And that is a sort of question. It’s like I think there are some things being put into that category that shouldn’t be in that category.

I heard of an organization wanting to make a curriculum that was like 90% AI produced, and I’m like, “That is really problematic. And now that’s a curriculum my child is going to use, I have an issue with that.” And so I think that’s how it starts to shape what we think the purpose and goal of life is, what are the highest values of life, and then even how we start to see ourselves, our own abilities, our own.

(16:46):
Am I a creator who is called to steward God’s creation or now is the purpose of life ease, comfort, relaxation and have technology do the job for me because I don’t have to put in mental effort to write an email or do these sorts of things because ChatGPT can do it for me.

Dr. Matt Jones (17:01):
And it may affect some of the formation things that we need to go through in order to become productive participants in society. So it’s pretty interesting. So you bring up artificial intelligence. It’s probably one of the biggest technological questions facing parents right now. How can we apply this biblical framework that you’ve been talking about to AI, to artificial intelligence?

Ryan Pauly (17:27):
Yeah. Well, I think I would put it this way. My push and encouragement is I don’t think these things are evil. I use AI every single day. It is a massive part of my day and my work and helps me with a ton of stuff. I’m definitely not against it, but we do have to be very, very careful.

I compare it to eating food. You cannot just say, “Oh, it’s bad, don’t eat, and you starve yourself.” But you also don’t just eat uncritically without thinking. We want to care for our bodies and therefore we want to think about the things that we put into our body.

I think the same way is, how do we think critically about this? I think worldview-ishly is recognizing, again, that humans are set apart, that God created, this is a good gift. This is something that we can use in good ways to actually demonstrate God’s glory and bring people to a knowledge of Jesus, and it’s wonderful, but we have to recognize that the part of the Christian story is the fall.

(18:24):
And what was the temptation to Adam and Eve and specifically to Eve from the stake that you will be like God? And that is actually something that even modern writers are saying is that they have this desire to become like God. Technology has the allure that it can make us like God, and with the right tools, maybe we can just fix the world ourselves and we have no need of God.

And so even one popular writer, Yuval Noah Harari from Oxford, a historian, wrote this book, Homo Deuce, that with more transhumanism, more technology and more evolution, we actually will be able to transition from homo sapiens to homodeuce to a God man. And then he writes that death is just a technical problem that we can and should solve with more technology. And so it can really begin to shape us in that way.

And when we recognize that that is just not the Christian story, that we are not the ones that are going to solve the problem of death, that Jesus has already done that, then where can we actually find that true and lasting hope and then start to stop and think different and think deeper and differently about the mediums that we use, the technology we engage in, and even what it is doing to us spiritually and relationally.

(19:37):
And so to share one quick quote with you again from John Dyer in his book From the Garden to the City, he says that spiritual depth requires the ability to pray for more than a few minutes, memorize and meditate on scripture, not search for it online, and to love God with our hearts and minds. This means that we must be careful to cultivate and retain the skill of thinking deeply, reading and sincerely contemplating the things of God, something that attention-getting technologies do not value.

And then in our relationships, he writes that faithfulness also requires that we can sit with a person and deeply listen without being distracted by a phone or wearable. He writes, “There’s maybe no greater Christian witness in our time than someone who can truly master the art of listening well in an age of constant interruptions.”

And so I think that’s how we start to see the question of asking, what are we made for and what are the greatest commandments of Jesus to love the Lord your God without your heart, so mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself?

(20:32):
Do we know our neighbor? Are we in those sort of embodied physical relationships where we desire to deeply know people or is this person just a form of entertainment to get what we need or I’m quickly get bored in a conversation and now I’m off looking at something and scrolling online and how is it shaping those relationships that we have as well?

Dr. Matt Jones (20:52):
Well, one of the things you keep bringing up and a theme that I keep hearing is the importance of values and establishing values. So when we think about our kids and we think about outsourcing different things that they need to develop, what kind of people should Christian parents ultimately be preparing their children to become, especially in light of these values?

Ryan Pauly (21:12):
Yeah. Well, I think obviously we want them to become followers of Jesus Christ. Yeah, good. That’s a great start. And then that means, do you actually follow Jesus? Do you know Jesus? Is time spent getting to know him and in his word, is that a value? Or again, are we trying to get things done quickly so we can get off to the next thing?

And I know I’m in the same boat as you, as you mentioned, your time with prayer versus the ESPN app. And I know this morning I was doing my devotions. I quickly got it done so I could check some videos that were online. And it’s like, is that my priority, just go to my job and the videos that I need to check or can I actually finish my devotion and say, now I want to take some more time and pray because it’s not just about checking that sort of box.

(21:56):
And then I think, as I mentioned, forming values and asking those sort of questions about what is valuable and what is happening here? And so asking questions about our technology, what is this technology doing to me? What is it doing for me? Is that something it should do for me? How is this affecting my relationships? How is it affecting my view of God?

One talk I give every year I go to Summit, given it five years in a row, is on entertainment. And I talk about how amusement can actually lead to being more selfish instead of selfless, being more aggressive than patient. And I remember going over this list of a youth group once and this student and his mom who was also there, both recognized independently, the student said, “I know I’ve been playing too many video games when my mom asks for help and I respond in an aggressive self-centered way like, how dare you?”

(22:47):
“I’m in the middle of something versus wanting to be a helper and love and care for my mom and obey instead of being disobedient.” And so they absolutely have this shaping potential on us that we do have to be careful of. And then I think one other thing is thinking deeply about what we engage in.

And I mentioned before how the medium of what we engage with. So Summit has, I think of saying leaders are readers, but we recognize that books turn your mind on, movies often turn your mind off, and we can engage in music. You can go to a concert and that’s a community bringing together thing. You go to a church and there’s worship together and to hear other people worshiping is a wonderful thing.

Well, that same music can be engaged with using some AirPods, but now that went from being inviting to isolating, where now someone has their AirPods in, it’s like, “I’m busy right now. Don’t talk to me or don’t interrupt me.” And so again, just being able to think deeper about how we engage in these sort of technologies and the message that that is also communicating.

Dr. Matt Jones (23:47):
Yeah. So I’m going to end with one more question. Is there a question in terms of this AI research and work and the insights that you’ve gained that I should be asking that I didn’t ask today? What’s something that you really wish, man, I want parents to hear to help them in terms of their relationship with one another or God or their children or even their children’s establishment of values? Is there one thing that I didn’t ask that you really say, “Man, we really got to get this out there for people?”

Ryan Pauly (24:18):
Well, I think for parents and for kids, I often think the biggest challenge is that technology separates. Technology isolates. That is just the nature of it.That’s what phones do. And even now we’re at a meal at a restaurant and I see families where everyone in the family’s sitting on their phone. It’s like, great, you’re out there, you’re together, but you’re in your isolated area.

And I think Sherry Turkle wrote a book called Alone Together where she talked about the same concept of we are physically in proximity together, but we are really alone. And so the question or challenge I think that we have to ask is, how are we using technology to do the thing that God has created us to do as embodied relational beings? That’s great.

How is the technology leading toward relationship and improving relationships rather than separating us from it? And so how am I using even Instagram rather than my friend going on a vacation and I see his post that he went on vacation, I went, oh, it looks like he had fun.

(25:16):
And I close my phone because, hey, I’ve caught up on that friend. I know what’s going on in their life. I now use that technology to say, “Hey, they just got home. I want to hear about this.” And then using your technology to text them or call them and say, “Hey, why don’t you come over? We want to have you over. Maybe you don’t have groceries, you haven’t gone shopping yet. If you feel ready, come on over, we want to host you or whatever, or when you’re ready. And how do I use it for the purpose of building relationships?”

And again, being present. And I think maybe the last thing I’ll say in this about being present is this idea, and it hit me the other day. I was at the park with my four-year-old, and he was going down this slide. He said, “Hey, dad, record me.” And so I grab my phone to record him and I pick up my phone and I do this.

(26:01):
And now obviously there’s what you can do and people have pushed back against me on this and like, “Well, hold your phone lower or whatever.” But my thought was this, “Is my child going to see this?” Whenever he’s doing anything important in life, when he’s accomplishing something, he’s on a stage, he’s on a field, he’s doing whatever he’s doing, is he going to see the back of a phone or is he going to see his father’s face who is engaged and excited?

And there was something that is just so interesting on this. If you can Google search masters golf versus other sports and phones. And whenever LeBron James or someone breaks a scoring record, everyone’s phones are like this and all you see is a sea of phones in the crowd. Well, the Masters Golf Tournament, they don’t allow phones. And you look at the crowd when the person is winning the Masters and the crowd is there, they’re engaged, they’re clear and you can see faces.

(26:51):
And I thought, what do I want my child to see? And I’m capturing stuff. Obviously, I’m not crazy. I’m taking pictures and videos of my kid’s life. But is that all they’re going to see is a dad who’s gathering and capturing everything or a dad who is actively present, excited and proud of his kids and looking and watching. And again, I think that shows the immediate, the intimate, the personal, relational way in which we’re created to be rather than using our phones to sometimes have that block or that isolating feature in our life.

Dr. Matt Jones (27:26):
Well, that is a great insight to end us today on the Upside Down Parenting Podcast. Ryan, thanks so much for joining us and helping us think about technology more intentionally, about what it means to develop a biblical worldview of technology and hopefully raise our kids wisely in this tech-saturated world.

If you want to go deeper on this topic, be sure to order your free copy of Summit’s newest parenting resource, The Great Tech Reset: Reclaiming Real Life for Christian Families by Arlene Pellicane. You can get your copy today at techresetbook.com. That’s techresetbook.com. And be sure to join us for the next episode in our special series on raising kids in a digital world. Thanks for listening to the Upside Down Parenting Podcast. Ryan, thanks for being with us. We’ll see you next time.

Ryan Pauly (28:15):
Thank you.