Welcome to the Upside-Down Parenting Podcast, where we help Christian parents navigate today’s culture with biblical wisdom, practical tools, and real encouragement.
Parenting has never been simple—but in a world filled with new spiritual ideas, social media influences, and shifting cultural values, many parents are asking an important question: How do we help our kids recognize truth and follow Christ with confidence?
In today’s episode we’re talking about the growing influence of New Age and ‘new spirituality’ trends among young people. From mindfulness culture to manifestation, spiritual-but-not-religious beliefs, and online influencers, these ideas are shaping how kids think about truth, identity, and God—often in subtle ways.
Joining us today is Dr. Michael Plato, who will help us understand what these movements are, why they’re so appealing to the next generation, and how Christian parents can respond with wisdom, grace, and a strong biblical worldview.
You’ll walk away with practical insights, conversation starters, and encouragement to help your kids grow in a faith that’s thoughtful, resilient, and rooted in Christ.
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Episode 33: Summary & Transcription
Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.
Episode Summary
On this episode of the Upside Down Parenting Podcast, Matt and Janel interview Dr. Michael Plato about the rise of new spirituality. Dr. Plato defines the term, explaining it is often characterized by a spiritual but irreligious mindset, and can be split into two main movements: a self-improvement focused new thought and a nature-focused, ritualistic neopaganism. He discusses the reasons for its growth, including cultural individualism, consumerism, and a rejection of institutional religion, describing it as a remix of beliefs. The conversation also covers the primary demographics it attracts, signs for parents to look for in their children, and the specific appeals of neopagan practices like Wicca and Asatru to young women and men, respectively.
Episode Transcript
Dr. Matt Jones (00:00):
Welcome to the Upside Down Parenting Podcast with Summit Ministries. Parenting can feel difficult and upside down and overwhelming, but understand you’re not alone. Each episode, we try to give practical tips and insights into what’s going on in the world, how to navigate that as parents. And today we are especially excited about having Dr. Michael Plato join us to talk about a growing system of belief called new spirituality. And so welcome, Michael, to the show. We’re super excited about having you today.
Dr. Michael Plato (00:34):
Thanks for having me, Matt.
Dr. Matt Jones (00:36):
You’re welcome. So to start, could you share a little bit about yourself, your work, and what causes you to care about new spirituality in this talk that we’re engaging today?
Dr. Michael Plato (00:49):
Well, appreciate that, Matt. So I’m actually a professor at Colorado Christian University, alongside, of course, Matt Jones himself, but we actually work in the same theological department. My area is primarily philosophy. Most of my educational background is in philosophy, so I oversee the philosophy program at CCU.
But I’m also head of world religions, which is a general requirement that CCU students have to have. So I’ve learned to teach all the various world faiths from Islam, Judaism to Hinduism, Buddhism, the Latter-day Saints or the Mormons. And so for whatever reason, for some strange reason, in Christian schools, philosophy professors often get tied with world religions.
(01:40):
I think because there’s a lot of intellectual components that we sort of draw attention to, or we sort of see a connection between them. And I’ve always had an attraction. I mean, I’ve always taught philosophy, but I’ve always had an affinity towards the study of world religions because, well, first of all, I grew up in a very pluralistic culture, Toronto, Ontario, in Canada.
And in Southern Ontario, where I’m from in Canada, there’s a growing thing, but that actually is not unusual pretty much anywhere nowadays. We are living, no matter where you are, pretty much in the United States, even in very rural places, religious pluralism is a growing reality. And if you’re not seeing it immediately, you will be seeing it probably in the very near future.
Dr. Matt Jones (02:29):
And Michael, will you just define religious pluralism for us real briefly there?
Dr. Michael Plato (02:33):
Sure. Religious pluralism simply means that you live in a culture or society where there are a variety of different religions represented by your friends and neighbors and coworkers.
Dr. Matt Jones (02:45):
Okay.
Dr. Michael Plato (02:46):
Where you’ve got churches, but also synagogues, mosques, temples, and other religious sites around. I mean, America really wasn’t that for a very long time, but mostly primarily a Christian culture. But now we’re seeing certainly through immigration, but also other areas, other forms of spirituality and religion developing.
Now, when it comes to the question you ask about why the particular interest in what’s called new spirituality, Christians, I mean, for those of us who are interested in engaging with other faiths, a number of Christians have already been engaging with those outside the faith. You have a lot of great people like William Lane Craig or JP Moreland or Doug Groothuis who have engaged primarily with atheists or non-believers. And you have a number of people that have certainly been engaging with a lot of the older traditions such as Islam or the Latter-day Saints. There’s lots of Christian apologists, some that I know that live in Utah and are engaging with the Mormons or the Latter-day Saints there.
(03:57):
The one area that I have noticed there hasn’t been very much engagement from, especially from an evangelical Christian point of view, was the subject of new spirituality, particularly areas such as neopaganism, witchcraft, and wicca. I actually had, for various reasons, connections and relations back when I was in Canada with that much more. And I sort of had a bit of a, more of a, you could say, more of a heart with that.
At one point, I actually ended up in a conversation with Lee Strobel and we were talking about this and he actually said he doesn’t know anybody really working on this in the evangelical world. And he really kind of pushed and encouraged me to make that kind of my own area especially.
So I teach world religions, but my main area and my main focus is the development of new spirituality as it’s developing, especially amongst young people in our country. And also, like I said, especially what we could call… There’s a variety of different things, but like neopaganism, which has been very attractive to many young people. And so that’s sort of become my niche. I have a real, they’re the people that I have the real heart for.
Dr. Matt Jones (05:12):
That’s awesome. Thanks for sharing that.
Janel Greig (05:13):
Yeah, that’s great. Michael, would you mind unpacking a little bit what new spirituality is for us? I think some of our parents may be familiar with the term, some may not. Some may have heard the term new age, new thought before, but not new spirituality. Could you unpack a little bit what new spirituality is?
Dr. Michael Plato (05:30):
Yeah. So new spirituality, I mean, all of these terms, there’s lots of complex history and they’re often used in different ways and different circumstances. Many people have probably heard of something called the New Age, which was a movement that really began in the 1970s and the 1980s. We don’t usually use that term nowadays. It’s kind of taken on certain characteristics that don’t fit with what we have now. New spirituality is largely, I mean, probably another term that you might have heard that fits with it a lot is what’s called spiritual, but not religious.
(06:04):
And this is one of the things we’re finding is that people who have abandoned traditional religion, especially Christianity or Judaism or any of the traditional faith, but especially Christianity in this country, what we’re finding is they’re not becoming non-spiritual or atheists. What we’re finding is that while they’re not adopting or going to church or belonging to a religious community, they still identify themselves as spiritual in some sort of way.
And the ways that they typically become spiritual, if you will, is often through individual practices or behaviors, things like yoga, alternative medicines, astrology, all sorts of different kinds of things. There are all sorts of individualistic practices, often very consumer based, very interestingly enough.
(06:58):
And so people are kind of trying to find their own way. And so new spirituality is a broad term that kind of encompasses that. Now, there are some big differences between what’s called neopaganism and new spirituality proper. So some people are going into it. If I could put it this way, some people want this sort of advanced quality, what we call new thought. They’re looking for ways of self-improvement, if you will. And that’s where you can kind of see that’s often what we, that would fit with more of what we call the old, the new age.
(07:41):
It’s really about focusing on the self and improving the future. But then there are a lot of people, and this often kind of gets left behind in the talk on new spirituality, is that when you look at neopaganism, the people that go into that are not looking for the self or the future. They’re really kind of focusing much more on things like nature and on rituals and looking to the past. And so there was a lot that I packed in there, but I’m trying to stress to you there’s really kind of two movements going on.
Janel Greig (08:12):
No, that’s good. So you’re saying that the new thought aspect is different from the neopaganism; the neopaganism is more the new spirituality. So the new thought, like vision boards and manifestations that we’re seeing some of our youth be pulled into is not necessarily in the new spirituality camp.
Dr. Michael Plato (08:29):
You could probably put both of them under new spirituality. They kind of get put in there, but I would really say, yeah, you’re right. Sometimes it does. It depends on who you talk to, but I try to. New spirituality, you’re right, is like new thought, self-improvement, all that kind of, which we have a very strong tradition that even leads to things like prosperity gospel.
Janel Greig (08:53):
Absolutely. Yep, yep.
Dr. Michael Plato (08:54):
But then you have these others that are rejecting not just, I would say Christianity, but also kind of modernity. And they’re looking to the past, they’re looking to nature, they’re looking to rituals. This is where you get your Wiccans, your Asatru, your Druids, and more broadly, your Neopagans, which has become an increasingly more attractive avenue for a lot more younger people.
Dr. Matt Jones (09:20):
Well, and I was going to ask, a follow-up is what, I know you mentioned self-improvement, but why do you think new spirituality is growing and being more attractive? And then is there a particular demographic that it’s more attractive to and maybe why on that? Does that make sense?
Dr. Michael Plato (09:39):
Okay. Yeah. We’re just talking new spirituality.
Dr. Matt Jones (09:41):
New spirituality. Let’s drill down on that. Yeah. Because I appreciate the different directions, but we’ll drill down on the new spirituality component.
Dr. Michael Plato (09:51):
There’s a lot of speculation and a lot of theory about why traditional religion, institutional religion, if you will, why that has been disappearing. So there’s a lot of different theories. Some would point to the individualism of our culture. Some would point to our consumerism, I think is a big part of it. We also have a strong history in this country, going back at least a couple of centuries of what we could call new thought, of this kind of self-improvement turning in on the self. People like Carl Truman have pointed out that we are a society of the self now.
(10:29):
The thinking is always, everything is about the self, about cultivating the self. And then consumerism really makes it into an individualistic thing. There’s a very good scholar by the name of Tara Isabella Burton, and she wrote a book a couple of years ago called Strange Rites, and she’s kind of tracking where the new spirituality is going.
And one of the things she says, she says we’re really, after the last few decades of the 20th century, we saw a real kind of secularization happening, but what we’re seeing is a reaction against it, but people aren’t going to traditional religion, but she’s saying what we’re having is a new religious revival, but she actually calls it the Remix Great Awakening. If you know, remix coming from the term music. And then probably if you’re familiar with the term the Great Awakening.
(11:22):
Jonathan Edwards, and then later there were these religious revivals. And she’s saying what we’re seeing is we’re seeing a new spirituality arise, but it’s very much a pick and choose because we’re all about individualism in our culture and we’re all about consumerism. So I’ll take a little Buddhism, a little Christianity, mix in a little astrology and a little bit of self-help and with some yoga lessons, and that’s my religion. That’s really, I think, going to be the main normative that we’re going to see in our culture right now.
The people that often, who would describe themselves on surveys as nones, not the little Catholic ladies, the N-O-N-E, I don’t have a religion, and we’re just a society that is very hesitant about institutions. I mean, I’m sure you must talk about this elsewhere, the negative impact effects or the negative responses people have towards the church these days.
(12:25):
I think that’s a big part of it. So there’s a number of different factors that have led us to this kind of new spirituality and things like consumerism, marketing, the online world have really kind of grabbed onto that and allowed for people to really kind of follow their own path.
Dr. Matt Jones (12:44):
Good. And just to follow up, to reiterate, is there a particular demographic, men, women, teenagers that are drawn to this particular approach to religion?
Dr. Michael Plato (13:00):
It seems to be pretty widespread. I don’t think we’re starting to see, I can’t really see, it is obviously affecting the younger generations more. We’re actually seeing, I think especially once you hit the millennials, we’ve been seeing a real drop off. There was, I think up until about the early 2000s, it seemed to be fairly steady, I think with Gen X. And then afterward, we’re starting to see a much more significant dropping off that’s happening. So it’s younger, but I don’t really see too much of a demographic shift between that. Usually more educated though.
Dr. Matt Jones (13:40):
Okay. That’s interesting.
Dr. Michael Plato (13:41):
Educated, middle class educated, middle class prosperity. It’s not something that is usually picked up by those who are poorer.
Dr. Matt Jones (13:51):
Yeah. Okay.
Dr. Michael Plato (13:53):
Great.
Janel Greig (13:53):
When you’re referring to one of the reasons for it, Michael, I think as you’re talking about the nones, so it’s that synchronistic worldview that we’re kind of saying, I think Barna revealed that in not his most recent study, but that’s kind of what he’s pointing to in that demographic. Am I tracking correctly?
Dr. Michael Plato (14:08):
Yeah. Yeah. Syncretism really seems to be sort of the key feature. Syncretism, that’s the more fancy technical term for it. I kind of like the term remix, which is kind of…
Janel Greig (14:18):
Yeah, I do too. I do too.
Dr. Michael Plato (14:20):
It really fits what we’re all about, which is, it’s so consumerous. It’s pick and choose. Even a lot of the… So I mean, just as a side, it’s even affecting some of the alternative groups themselves. So for example, one of the things I’ve been tracking is a conflict that’s been going on in the world of Wicca and witchcraft, where the older Wiccans say, you have to follow the rules about rituals and doing magic. And the younger ones are like, “Well, I can do what I want. I can rework everything.” And so there’s actually a dynamic clash that’s even going in there between the generations.
Janel Greig (14:59):
I like that term remix, and I think that’s a relatable term for all of us and our parents. Speaking of our parents, our listeners, what are some signs that parents might spot or might be able to look for to see if their kiddos are being pushed into or drawn into the realm of new spirituality?
Dr. Michael Plato (15:18):
Well, let’s see here. Well, I think of anything, I mean, well, of course it’s how much access do you have to your kids’ social media?
Janel Greig (15:27):
I think that’s a great question. Yep.
Dr. Michael Plato (15:29):
And that’s one of those things is like, what signs are you going to look for? That’s usually the easiest one. I mean, obviously the discussion of, I mean, you gave me that question before. I was like, what about the signs? I usually notice the signs when I talk to people and then their eyes light up and they’re interested in it or something like that. That’s usually when I notice it. It’s always, I mean, Matt, I could probably relate to this. How do I know, I mean, I’m not saying…
So I teach largely Christian evangelical students. And when I tell my students that we’re going to be now covering witchcraft and wicca, we discuss this in the class and I can tell certain people their eyes laid up and it’s not like that, but they have questions and they’re curious and then they come up to you after class and like, “Oh, by the way, I’ve got a cousin who, or by the way, I have a friend who,” and then it all comes out. So I think that’s often the way it’s like you ask the questions and you see if there’s a response kind of thing.
(16:39):
Now, there are some things within the Christian world that do, there are forms of new spirituality, if you will, within the Christian world, things like angel numbers or there are things like other kinds of mystical traditions.
Dr. Matt Jones (16:57):
Okay, time out. What’s angel numbers? I don’t know what those are.
Dr. Michael Plato (17:01):
Oh, angel numbers. So angel numbers, I don’t know how I could put it. I would categorize it as a form of divination, but what it is, it’s actually growing amongst a lot of younger Christian people, but what they do is when they look around and if they happen to see sequences of numbers, particularly if they see three, one. For example, if you were to order a pizza, say, and you got your pizza and you got the receipt, and in the price after the tax, it had $11.11, one, one, one, one, they would go, “Oh, an angel is trying to communicate with me.”
Dr. Matt Jones (17:42):
Oh, wow. Okay.
Dr. Michael Plato (17:44):
Or if it’s three threes in a row or three sevens in a row, and these mean different things. And they say when you see, if you were driving behind a car and the numbers on it were like 888, they go, “Oh, that’s an angel trying to communicate with you.”
Dr. Matt Jones (17:58):
Okay.
Dr. Michael Plato (18:00):
Yeah, this is actually even within the Christian world, this has been kind of growing. It’s like, well, see, it’s angels because, don’t we love angels? But it’s kind of a divination because you’re saying the angel is communicating with me by these sequences of numbers and they mean certain things. Sometimes they’ll say they’ll see visions of the numbers. And I’ve seen that and I’ve talked with students and I’ve seen that has been a practice that some people have kind of picked up on.
Dr. Matt Jones (18:29):
Thank you for explaining that. And I interrupted you. Did you have others that came to mind on that also?
Dr. Michael Plato (18:35):
No, I’m just trying to think of a lot of it because they know… The thing is, a lot of them obviously know that it’s wrong from a Christian point of view. So they’re going to probably be, I mean, from the parent point of view, I kind of think that’s the thing they would want to hide to.
Dr. Matt Jones (18:53):
Yeah.
Dr. Michael Plato (18:54):
I mean, they’re going to understand, they’re not oblivious. It’s not, they’re going to casually leave their magic wands out, kind of thing. I don’t think so. So it is something that I think you kind of have to probe. If there’s certain behaviors or whatever that you’re like, “This is a little different,” or whatever.
If you’re finding that they’re finding certain cultural things attractive, I don’t want to get the Harry Potter thing or whatever, because that’s a little bit of a complicated thing. But yeah, there’s certain things that if they find those kinds of things within stories and narratives or films attractive, I think that’s a good starting point. A lot of it’s just simply asking, “What do you think about that?”
Janel Greig (19:39):
Yeah, I think that’s, I think, a great takeaway from that. It’s that’s keeping that conversation open and being intentional with our kids. “What’s going on? What are you wondering about? What are you interested in?” That relationship is really important for that. Thank you.
Dr. Matt Jones (19:52):
And I’m just curious. Go ahead.
Dr. Michael Plato (19:53):
I would especially say, I mean, and this is just anecdotally from my personal experience of years and years of teaching students, especially if you’re worried about the thing of witchcraft, wicca, neopaganism, if you have a teenage girl, ask her because, almost, they all know it. They may not all be involved in it, but they know people who are, they’re going to be interested in it at some point in their life. Almost 100%, I would say with new spirituality, it affects both. But for wicca, for example, that is vastly, majority interest, young women.
Dr. Matt Jones (20:35):
And why is that? Michael, do you mind going into that a little bit?
Dr. Michael Plato (20:38):
Yeah, so if we’re moving over to neopaganism, I think there’s a number of reasons. Men, of course, are attracted to neopaganism too, but it’s of a different kind. I would say there’s a number of reasons why witchcraft, wicca, Asatri, by the way, that’s the name of what’s called the Germanic or Norsepaganism.
I actually had a former student of mine who ended up telling me that he took over as a youth pastor in a church and he ended up finding out that the young men were all involved in Asatru, which was the worship of Odin and Thor. And that was within a church youth group. And so boys are going to be much more attracted to Asatru or Druidism, I would say, girls to wicca. But there’s a number of reasons generally. First of all, and I think a lot of these are questions that you have to deal with when you’re thinking about what is the church doing and what is the church not doing?
(21:41):
For one thing, they’re very highly participatory. They’re very ritualistic. I think young people find ritual very attractive. And how much do you see in a contemporary evangelical church? They love the outlay. They love the material. They’re very material based, very nature connected. We live in a culture that’s so isolated or cut off from the natural world. With witchcraft, you’re having to be mindful of the phases of the moon, the seasons, the natural world. It gives them a sense of in-touchness with nature. It also very importantly gives them a sense of power. This is one of the major attractions of magic.
Janel Greig (22:29):
Sure.
Dr. Michael Plato (22:29):
Magic is, if your kid is feeling very much like they don’t have any kind of control in their life, magic becomes so attractive to them because this is the power. This is what gives them the chance. It’s also very anti-modern. If there’s a lot of things, I mean, especially a lot of them, they’re running from technology.
And then you go to church and churches can be just as filled with as much technology as the rest of the world. And this is a move away from it. There’s a malaise or sickness with the modern world, and some of them want to get away from that. They want to feel like they’re attached to the real world. And I would also say that with Wicca, it is very much, Wiccans would very much describe themselves as pro-feminine and pro-woman.
Janel Greig (23:22):
Sure.
Dr. Michael Plato (23:23):
Asatru and Druidism and the like are very masculine. Do what you will about the views of gender that we have in the church, but I’m just telling you, these are things that they would see, that they see Wicca is a religion where women are at the center of it, ritually. Neopaganism by the, like I said, Asatru in that is actually, most people don’t realize this, but a lot of Norse pagans, the main place they recruit are military bases. And in fact, after Christianity, neopaganism is the largest religion in the American armed forces.
Janel Greig (24:07):
Yeah, that’s really interesting. Yeah.
Dr. Michael Plato (24:09):
And many armed force men and women are turning to paganism because it actually gives a place for military views of masculinity and it celebrates that. You have views of Valhalla where it’s a heavenly reward for the warrior. So there’s a lot of factors in there. Those are the ones that I would say that’s what makes it attractive. And that’s when, from a parent, you want to think of, why is my kid attracted to this? Are they feeling powerless? Is the role for men and women in the church? Yeah.
Janel Greig (24:46):
That’s great, Michael. Thank you. Thank you for that. And thank you for giving our parents a fairly deep dive into new spirituality and some of the dangers, some of the things to look for. I think this will help equip our parents and our listeners to be watchful of that, to be mindful of that. So I really appreciate your time today, Michael. It’s been a pleasure getting to get to know you just a little bit, but hearing about what your expertise lies in. Thank you for your time.
Dr. Michael Plato (25:13):
My pleasure.
Janel Greig (25:14):
Listeners, thank you for tuning in. Thank you for spending time with Matt and I and Michael today. We appreciate you continuing to equip your kids with biblical truth and pouring into them, investing in them. And we look forward to seeing you all or having you all here next time on the Upside Down Parenting Podcast.