Simple Habits for Raising Resilient, Joy-Filled Kids w/ Dr. Marcus Warner | Ep. 57, Pt. 2

Episode 57: Summary & Transcript

Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Episode Summary

The episode continues Dr. Marcus Warner’s discussion of his Four Habits of Raising Joy-Filled Kids, focusing on building bounce through relational joy, correcting with care by addressing behavior in an emotionally attuned way, and developing disciplines relationally. The hosts also share a light “speed round” to get to know Warner personally. They close by encouraging parents that raising resilient, faith-filled kids is less about perfection and more about building joy, connection, and small, consistent investments over time.

Episode Transcript

Dr. Matt Jones (00:00):
Welcome back to part two of our conversation with Dr. Marcus Warner. In his book, Four Habits of Raising Joy-Filled Kids, he gives us some insight for not only ourselves, but also for raising our children in how to say, listen, you can have joy-filled kids. And I think we do need more and more joy, not only in our lives, but also in our relationships. And clearly the Holy Spirit has given the gift of joy among other gifts, and we want to develop that and model that a little bit more.

So Marcus, we look forward to talking about three of the other elements of these habits that we can instill and model in our children in hopes that they’ll be able to connect with the Holy Spirit’s work in their lives to experience the joy that you’ve described. So the second habit you discuss is building bounce. So would you first of all define that? And then second of all, why do some children seem to rebound from difficult experiences while others get stuck?

Dr. Marcus Warner (01:03):
Yeah. So Building Bounce is the name of a book that I wrote with a child therapist named Stefanie Hinman. And the imagery there is that we are like balls. And when a ball is full of air, it bounces back and it’s fun to play with. But if that ball is just a little squishy, it’s not nearly so much to play with, fun to play with. It doesn’t bounce back that well. And sometimes it gets punctured and just goes flat.

(01:30):
And so our premise here is that the air in the ball that allows it to bounce is joy. And so if we want children who are good at rebounding from difficult emotions, they need enough air in their ball. And the air in the ball is joy. And joy is not the same as happy in the sense that it is relational joy, not non-relational happiness.

So if I am, non-relational happiness would be, I’m eating pizza. I’m so happy. I’m watching TV while I eat pizza, I’m really happy. I am playing my solitaire game on my TV while I eat this stuff. Those are happy, sure, but they’re non-relational happy. For joy to be joy, it has to be relational. And so this is because it’s in the part of my brain that is the relational center of my brain. So building bounce is how do we train our children to grow the capacity for joy?

(02:31):
Because, and the best way not to explain it is to explain how the brain develops. And that is when a child is first born, their brain is largely underdeveloped. In fact, the very top part of their brain is not fully formed at all. And it’s this very top part of their brain, especially on the right, which is the part of the brain that thinks of itself as me. And this is where I house my character, where I house my identity, my sense of self.

It’s also the relational hub of my brain. And it’s the part of my brain that grows with the experience of joy. So the more joy that my brain experiences, this part of my brain will physically grow and it can grow my whole life and get to be quite big. So what will happen is that, but because it’s almost completely undeveloped as an infant, that means my capacity for joy has to grow.

(03:24):
I’m not born with it. It has to be developed through exercise. And just like muscles grow through working out where I work hard and then I rest and I work hard and then I rest. The brain grows the same way. I’ve got to have joy workouts for this part of my brain to grow. So when we’re talking about building bounds, we’re talking about, okay, how do I help my child get enough joyful joy in this ball that it’ll bounce back, that they can handle the hard things in life?

And to do that, we got to help them have joy workouts. And I guess the obvious thing is, well, what’s a joy workout? How do you do that? So in a nutshell, there is high energy joy and there is low energy peace. And they both need to be relational. So high energy joy might be like peekaboo, peekaboo, and you’re playing and you’re helping them get in.

(04:19):
And you see, babies will literally start bouncing. And why are they bouncing? It’s because this part of their brain is getting flooded with all the joy chemicals. And then at one point, the baby goes from really happy and bouncing to just turning away and looking away and stop. Everything just stops. You think, uh-oh, I broke the baby. It’s like, no, you didn’t break the baby.

But what happened is that their capacity for joy hit its limit. Their brain can’t handle any more joy right now. They need to rest. And so at this point it’s like, okay, let’s snuggle and rest. Let’s be relational and quiet. And then in a little bit, they’re going to come out, they’re going to peek around, they’re going to try to make eye contact with you again. And what do they want to do? They want to do that joy thing again.

(05:04):
It’s like, oh, let’s do the joy thing. And then they get overwhelmed, they stop, and then they’re like, okay, let me be quiet together. And then you get to be like a toddler and you go to the playground and they run up. And as a three-year-old, it’s like, I go play every five minutes. They’re back to see you. Everything okay? Yep. Okay. I’m going to go play. Everything but you.

And then by the time they’re 10, they’re gone for hours and they don’t need to come back to see you because this part of their brain has developed the capacity to have joy that doesn’t have to keep coming back to you for refills all of the time. And so that’s what we want. We want a brain that has grown the capacity to have enough joy that even though I go through some hard things in life, it’s not going to overwhelm the systems.

(05:45):
I’m still going to act like myself. I’m still going to feel like me and it’s going to be okay. So that’s one of the key ways that we grow this is those high energy, happy to be with you, low energy, quiet, and we’re still happy to be together, but we’re quiet right now. And infants need up to eight hours a day of this kind of joy workouts, which is just exhausting for young moms to hear. And so because I truly believe God didn’t intend for one person to give all of that joy to that baby. It’s supposed to come from a lot of different sources.

Janel Greig (06:18):
Yeah.

Dr. Matt Jones (06:20):
I’ve never heard that before. That is great. And now I don’t feel so bad about my kid. I used to love playing peekaboo and then all of a sudden they’d give up and start crying like, “What’s wrong with you?” That makes a ton of sense.

Dr. Marcus Warner (06:33):
Yeah, it does. Because honestly, if you force them to keep in a point of joy at that thing, it’s like tickling somebody too long. It’s got the same kind of effect. It goes from fun to traumatic. So part of attuning to a child is recognizing when they need rest. And when you shouldn’t be pushing the child right now, they read them, they need to rest. That’s part of attunement.

Dr. Matt Jones (06:58):
Cool.

Janel Greig (06:59):
Yeah. And the intentionality that’s required from that too. It’s not just default, they just figured out, why are our kids crying? We were just having fun playing peekaboo. But the intentionality that, okay, this is the rest time. Let’s take a rest. And then re-engaging when they’re ready. I like that.

Dr. Matt Jones (07:13):
I’ve got a friend who’s about to become a new dad and he gets fixated on it. Oh, it was working. It was working. So I’m just going to at least send him this clip. So thank you, Marcus. And I have a ball to just keep me distracted too. So it’s pretty funny. All right. So we do this thing on here, Marcus, called the speed round. And so really the big idea is that we’re going to ask you questions to get to know you a little bit, but your answers have to be as short as possible. All right? All right, good. All right.

Dr. Marcus Warner (07:45):
Yeah, that’s my silent affirmation. Let’s do it. All right, good.

Dr. Matt Jones (07:48):
Yeah. See, I am already not doing well with attunement. I apologize. All right. Coffee date, quiet evening at home, or spontaneous road trip?

Dr. Marcus Warner (08:00):
Quiet evening at home, mostly.

Dr. Matt Jones (08:01):
I was going to guess that.

Dr. Marcus Warner (08:03):
Yep.

Janel Greig (08:03):
That’d be a fun version of this. Guess the guest’s answer. There you go. Yeah. What’s a movie that you’ve seen so many times that you can practically quote it, Marcus?

Dr. Marcus Warner (08:13):
Well, Princess Bride, right?

Dr. Matt Jones (08:15):
Yes. Okay.

Dr. Marcus Warner (08:15):
I think a lot of people have that one. Then Force Gump.

Dr. Matt Jones (08:22):
He even came out.

Dr. Marcus Warner (08:23):
I heard it there. You got to say it right. Yeah. Yeah, you do. Yeah, there’s a few movies like that probably if I stop and think about it.

Janel Greig (08:32):
Good.

Dr. Matt Jones (08:33):
Good. All right. What’s the worst parenting advice you’ve ever received or heard?

Dr. Marcus Warner (08:42):
I don’t know if it’s advice, but I mean, it’s really a little bothering when you see people yelling at their toddlers thinking that they can discipline them out of an emotion. And I think that’s the worst thing. It’s like people thinking that the solution to their two-year-old’s temper tantrum is discipline when actually what they need is help in handling this big emotion.

Janel Greig (09:13):
Yep. Very, very true. After a long day, what is your favorite way to recharge?

Dr. Marcus Warner (09:21):
So yeah, my wife and I will regularly. We’ve just picked up K-dramas, so we’ll regularly watch a K-drama on TV together.

Dr. Matt Jones (09:31):
I’m sorry, what’s a K-drama?

Dr. Marcus Warner (09:32):
No, it’s a Korean television, right? Wow. Where you’re reading subtitles. It sounds crazy. I thought it was too, but we look forward to doing that at the end of the day. We’ll also play cards together. Usually there’s a walk in there somewhere, but it’s like, yeah, that’s pretty common for us right now. Okay.

Dr. Matt Jones (09:57):
A K-drama. I’ve learned so many things today.

Dr. Marcus Warner (09:59):
A K-drama. It’s like K-pop. Yeah, I get it. I’m not as into K-pop, but the K-dramas are pretty fun.

Dr. Matt Jones (10:06):
I got it. All right, two more. Favorite board game or family game?

Dr. Marcus Warner (10:12):
Ticket to Ride.

Dr. Matt Jones (10:13):
Yeah.

Dr. Marcus Warner (10:14):
There you go.

Dr. Matt Jones (10:16):
My daughter and I are on this competition on Ticket to Ride. We love playing that one. All right, last one there, Janel.

Janel Greig (10:22):
Last one. What’s a hidden talent most people don’t know that you have, Marcus?

Dr. Marcus Warner (10:28):
I used to teach tennis.

Dr. Matt Jones (10:30):
Really? Okay.

Janel Greig (10:31):
Very cool.

Dr. Marcus Warner (10:32):
So yeah, I was an athlete for most of my life. And so if there was a ball in the sport, I tended to play it.

Janel Greig (10:41):
Awesome. Have you transitioned to pickleball?

Dr. Marcus Warner (10:44):
That’s a good question. Sort of. I now own a pickleball paddle and I’m beginning to make that transition.

Dr. Matt Jones (10:54):
Well, I’m going to steal your third question here because I want to make sure we get through the C and D, Janel. The third habit you explore is correcting with care. So what do we mean by that? And why is it so important for children to feel understood before we move to the D of being disciplined?

Dr. Marcus Warner (11:13):
So I’m like, there’s an order to this. It goes attune, build, bounce, and then correct with care. So I used to tell my kids when they were old enough for words, I used to tell them, it’s like, “I love you. I want you to be successful in life.” And what I mean by that is I want you to have lots of friends. I want you to make a good amount of money. I want you to have a satisfying life where you just enjoy a lot of things.

But what you’re doing right now isn’t going to get you there. We’ve got to correct this. This has to change. And so part of what I tried to do in correcting is that idea that you are actually correcting something. I’m not saying you are bad. You should be ashamed. What is wrong with you? I’m saying, I want the best for you.

(12:04):
This isn’t going to get you there. We got to correct this because I love you. And then it becomes a little more obvious how loving is leading to this correction because I really want what’s best for you. And so I’m trying to think of things that they would want. I want a lot of friends.

(12:25):
I want to have more joy and happiness in the things in life. So it’s like, this isn’t going to do that, so we got to correct this. And when you’re correcting with care, also, you don’t explain why to a child when you tell them what to do. You explain why after they have obeyed, not before they obey. And otherwise, you’re setting yourself up for a nonstop fight for their entire childhood because you’ve got to convince them that they ought to obey.

And so instead of when they would say why, my only response was, “Are you going to obey?” I wouldn’t give them an answer. I’m just like, “Are you going to obey or not?” And they would go and do it. And then afterwards I’d sit down once and say, “Let me tell you why I wanted you to do this.” Because it’s a good thing to know why.

(13:15):
It’s a good thing to gain some of that knowledge, but you can’t make it the premise upon which kids obey. So part of correcting with care is not setting this up because if a child feels like they have equal say in what happens in the family, you’re actually setting them up to be really angry.

Because now they feel like they should have a voice in every decision that’s made and if things don’t happen the way they want them to be, that’s not fair. And if you want an angry, angry kid, then by all means, share all the decision making in the family with them.

(13:54):
There are ages to this. So not only do we have the four habits, but we also have three levels of parenting because you apply these habits differently for infants and for children and for adults. And so we kind of break that out in the book as well. Like here’s the four habits, but what they look like in practice is different at each age. So let me give you one more example on correcting with care just with this age difference in mind.

Before about age four, a child really doesn’t know what the word no means, or don’t. So when you say, don’t hit your sister, what they hear is blah, blah, blah, hit your sister. Or don’t touch that oven. They go, blah, blah, blah, touch the oven. But most people recoil that, well, my kid understands. No, what they’re doing is they’re reading your body language and they’re going, “They just told me to touch the oven, but they don’t seem to mean it because they’re really kind of angry about this or they’re really intense about this.”

(14:54):
“So I’m going to trust the body language and not the words.” And what they’re doing is they’re attuning to you and they’re reading you and going, “I think this is what I’m supposed to be doing.” It could be very confusing for little kids. And if you want to understand just how confusing it is for them, you try to take your nose and your don’ts and turn it into a positive command. Don’t touch the stove, turns into, step away from the stove, put your hands down by your side, come here.

And it takes a little time for you to think through that. What am I going to say instead of the other thing? And so unfortunately, kids at an early age go, no, no, no. And when they do it, they always do it with emotion because they’re mimicking our emotion because that’s what they’re reading in all of this.

(15:43):
So the brain itself isn’t fully developed enough to completely grasp the intellectual concept of a negative. And so that’s just an example of correcting with care, is that I can’t just rely on no and don’t, especially in those early childhood years. I’ve got to learn to meet them where they are, to help them recover.

And the terrible twos is a classic example of this because the reason for the terrible twos is that around 18 months of age, there are new hormones and chemicals going through the body that weren’t going through it before. And now whereas your baby could feel anger, your toddler can feel rage. Whereas your baby could feel fear, your toddler can feel terror. And they’re barely two years old and they have no idea what to do with rage. So they are expressing their rage at you and your adorable little two-year-old says, “I hate you.”

(16:43):
“I wish you were dead.” And you’re like, “I got to get this out of here right now. I got to…” And you go straight into discipline mind. “We don’t do that around here. No, no, no.” And what they actually need is somebody to be relationally connected, said, “Man, that’s a lot of anger, isn’t it? It’s like, you’re really, really mad right now.” And the goal is to get the kid nodding their head like, “Yeah, I am really mad.” I said, “Well, when we get really mad, this is not how we do it. We don’t do it like this. This is what we do instead.”

And it becomes a training moment. And then after dealing with the emotion, now you correct and you say,” So what you did there, we need to correct that. “Well, that doesn’t always mean punishing them. It might mean punishing them sometimes, especially if they’re willfully doing it again and again.

(17:35):
But there’s an order to these things because what they’re really needing most is for somebody to help them with these extreme emotions that they have no idea what to do with. And so by just shutting it down, what happens is all they learn is, mom, dad, no help with this. I am on my own.

And so you’re going to be afraid of that emotion for the rest of your life and you don’t know how to handle it and know what to do with it unless something happens to intervene. So that’s what we mean by correcting with care. It’s not just being gentle when you punish somebody. Correcting with care is actually correcting behavior and doing it in a way that is in sync with their developmental process and doing things in a way that are in sync with where they’re at emotionally.

Janel Greig (18:21):
Yeah.

Dr. Matt Jones (18:21):
Got it.

Janel Greig (18:22):
Well, that’s a good segue to the D of your habits. Developing disciplines relationally. Can you unpack that a little bit for our listeners? And I think this leads really well into that.

Dr. Marcus Warner (18:35):
Yeah. So we usually use correction and discipline almost interchangeably. I’ve got to discipline my child means I’ve got to punish my child. What I mean by it, and I’ve almost hesitated on the word because of that, but it’s, I want to teach my child disciplines. And so in my family, I was taught art, I was taught athletics, I was taught academics, I was taught music, I was taught all kinds of things.

Because my family wanted us to be well-rounded, wanted us to have all these things because your life becomes richer, it becomes fuller. They teach gardening, they teach woodwork, they teach how to fix things, how to do this. The more skills that you have, the more freedom you have in life. And that includes emotional regulation skills. So the more skills I have in dealing with my emotions, and then you add on that all the skills that I have and everything else, what happens is I begin to learn what the Bible calls wisdom.

(19:31):
And wisdom can be defined as discernment and discipline. It is the discernment to recognize what’s good from what’s evil, which includes what is satisfying from what is just temporarily pleasurable. And as a child, if I’m learning, you know what? It’s a whole lot more satisfying to make things and to build things and to be creative and to learn skills and do all this stuff. It’s just more satisfying than just constantly watching TV.

So what we want to do is we want to help them learn the disciplines that make life fun because in the end it makes life fun because I’ve got all these skills and I can do so many things now that I couldn’t do before. And so I want to do that relationally though. So it’s an opportunity to spend time with them, to be engaged with that discipline that they’re building. As opposed to like, go do it, just go do it, do one more thing on your plate.

(20:36):
Make sure you do it and I’ll be mad at you if you don’t. I actually want to try to use that as an opportunity to increase my bond with the child. So that’s what we mean by it.

(20:48):
So discernment, what’s actually good for me, what’s actually going to be satisfying. And what happens is if I get to puberty and I don’t know what’s truly satisfying, and I’ve never developed the discipline to say no to what’s only temporarily pleasurable, and I now have sexual hormones kicking through my body, it’s kind of hard to learn it then. So that’s why it’s so important for some of these things to be learned at the season of life that they’re meant to be learned in.

Because if a child learns that it is worth saying no to some things because it’s so much better to do this, then it becomes easier during that transition through puberty to learn, okay, I’m already pretty good at saying no to things that are only temporarily pleasurable. And I’m already pretty skilled at recognizing what’s really good for me and what’s truly satisfying.

(21:42):
And so if I don’t have that base though, what happens is from puberty, I go into this adult world with still a child, still an emotional child, and I’m just setting myself up for all kinds of disasters.

And that’s why if I’m a parent now and I’m realizing, you know what? I’m still functionally an infant or I’m still functionally a child when it comes to the way I handle these things, all you can do is be humble and admit it and then say, “All right, so what do I need to do? I’m going to have to go back through some of these same processes. I got to learn how to build bounce in my own life. I got to practice attuning to other people better.”

Janel Greig (22:23):
Yeah, we can’t pass on what we don’t possess. And you have a great example of that in the book. You talk about the oxygen mask. And listeners, I encourage you to go pick up the book, The Four Habits of Raising Joy-Filled Kids. Marcus provided some great practical applications that he shares in the book, but there’s so much more in the book that is so valuable and useful.

So Marcus, thank you so much for joining us for these two episodes. Listeners, if you missed that first one, go back and listen to it because it really framed today’s conversation. Thank you, Marcus.

Dr. Marcus Warner (22:55):
Absolutely. Pleasure to be here.

Janel Greig (22:57):
We’re so grateful that your message is that raising healthy, resilient, faith-filled children isn’t about getting everything right. It’s about building that joy, creating connection, and growing together. And to our listeners, if today’s conversation encouraged you, we’d love for you to share this episode with another parent who could use a little hope.

Remember, you don’t have to have all the answers to intentionally disciple your kids. Small, consistent investments over time can have an eternal impact. If you have a parenting question you’d like us to discuss on a future episode, send it to podcast@summit.org. Thank you for joining us for the Upside Down Parenting Podcast. Thank you, Marcus. And thank you, Matt.

Dr. Matt Jones (23:38):
Thank you, Janel. Thanks, Marcus.

Janel Greig (23:40):
Yep. We’ll see you next time.