On today’s episode, we’re doing something special. We’re bringing back all the hosts from our previous episodes for a roundtable conversation where they’ll tackle some of the most pressing, real-life questions about gender, sexuality, identity, and what it means to follow Jesus in today’s cultural landscape. These are the kinds of topics that families wrestle with around the dinner table, in late-night conversations, and in moments of quiet reflection. It’s a chance to hear practical wisdom, biblical insight, and honest discussion from trusted voices you’ve already gotten to know.
Dr. Jeff and Dr. Kathy’s newest book, Raising Gender-Confident Kids, is written to come alongside parents with biblical wisdom, practical guidance, and real-life examples. It isn’t a book just for families in crisis—it’s for every mom and dad who wants their children to embrace God’s good design with joy and courage. Get your free copy at genderconfidentkids.com.
For more practical, biblically based resources for parents, check out Summit.org/parents.
Episode 5: Summary & Transcript
Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.
Episode Summary
This episode of the Upside Down Parenting Podcast features a roundtable discussion with Katie Bergford, Gabriel Pagel, Elizabeth Stubblefield, and Arlene Pellicane. The conversation focuses on how parents can navigate gender, sexuality, and identity issues with their children in today’s complex cultural landscape. The speakers share personal stories of both successes and regrets in their parenting journeys, emphasizing that Christian parenting isn’t a formula but rather life-on-life discipleship. Their collective wisdom highlights the need for parents to truly know their children, pray consistently, rely on God’s guidance, and remember that all children crave deep connection and understanding as they develop their identities.
Episode Transcript
Aaron Atwood (00:00):
Welcome to the Upside Down Parenting Podcast from Summit Ministries. As parents, we know life can feel confusing, overwhelming, sometimes kind of upside down, and often even the way we respond to that confusion is, well, I mean in Jesus’ model, a little bit upside down two. So we want to invite you to join us in this conversation today where we take real life experiences and bring some application to the topics of gender, sexuality, and identity.
And this is really fun. We’re bringing back our co-host from previous episodes to just sort of have a round table discussion with each other about how they navigate life and some of these complicated issues. So Katie, I want to kick it over to you. I don’t think our audience has met you yet. Give everybody a brief introduction of who you are and why you are here today.
Katie Bergford (00:55):
Hi everyone. I’m so glad to be joining you today. My name is Katie Bergford and I am a mom to a sweet one-year-old baby boy and I am loving being a parent and have a lot to learn. So I’m excited to be a part of this conversation today as we talk about some important topics.
As far as my history with Summit, I have been closely involved in Summit Student Conference for the last six years and served as our Colorado program manager for the last three. So I have had hundreds of conversations with students and have seen the importance of having intentional conversations, inviting Jesus into conversations, and especially talking about hard topics like gender and identity that we are talking about today. So I’m excited to be here and help guide this conversation. We’re going to hear from each of the people joining today. So Gabriel, I’m going to punt it off to you to intro yourself.
Gabriel Pagel (01:55):
Okay, thanks Katie. I’m Gabriel. I am a dad of five and have been married to my wife for 21 years now, and I was a high school Bible teacher for quite a while and a youth pastor, so I’ve dealt with a lot of different ways of this gender issue that we’re dealing with a lot. So that’s kind of why I’m here today, hopefully to add a little bit of the conversation.
Elizabeth Stubblefield (02:24):
Awesome. I’m Elizabeth Stubblefield and I am married to David. We’ve been married 17 years and he has worked with Summit on and off for over 20 years. Our family has for the last eight years, and so we work with the summer conference and also with graduate support. But prior to that I worked as a high school Bible teacher as well, and in women’s ministry and girls ministry. So also a mom of four children ranging from kindergarten through a couple of high schoolers. So I’ve got the span in the thick of it right now.
Arlene Pellicane (03:02):
And my name is Arlene Pellicane and I’m an author. I have books like Screen Kids and Parents Rising, and my husband and I have been married for 26 years. We have three kids. We go boy, girl, girl. We have a college graduate now, which is kind of crazy. We have, my middle child is in college and we have a junior in high school and the top two, the two older ones have been to Summit. And so I thank you very much for being on that staff to support them. They had an amazing time in Manitou.
Katie Bergford (03:32):
Awesome. Well it is so good to be with you all today and I’m looking forward to having this conversation. It’s going to be fun. Yeah, so let’s jump in. First, I would love to talk about formation of our kids. So everything we do forms us and as we press in as parents, we are playing a key role in helping form our kids. So I would love to hear from you guys what have been some of the key things that you have focused on to be intentional with the formation of your kids and specifically with their identity. Gabriel, would you like to jump in on that?
Gabriel Pagel (04:11):
Sure. One of the really important things that we have been intentional about in our family is we have gone through catechism with our kids. There’s a lot of really good catechisms out there and there’s some really good old ones. We chose the New City Catechism that was spearheaded by Tim Keller. But going through those and giving those short summaries of important truths of the faith have been really important. Even when my kids fought against it quite a bit actually, because I’m older, I’m too old for this kind of stuff sometimes in all of that. But then later on they’ll come home from youth group and say, I’m the only one that knew the answer to this sort of thing. Really taking the time to be intentional and bring those sorts of question and answer times has been really important for us.
Arlene Pellicane (05:10):
I’ll be fully honest and say I was the parent that would get the catechism book and then be like, this would be great, and I would do it once. And then I was like, well, we really didn’t ever complete this book. And my kids are old enough that when they were in elementary school, gender was not really an issue. So it wasn’t like, oh, I’m sending them, my kids went to public school K through 12 in San Diego and really K through sixth. We didn’t see anything strange at all at that time.
(05:41):
But now if they were in kindergarten now in the exact same place that we live, I would have to be like, let’s go look at good pictures, bad pictures. Let’s talk about what makes a boy and what makes a girl. And look, you’re a boy and you’re a girl because things are different that you do have to talk about them. And so I think the storybooks are very helpful. And even though we didn’t do the formal catechism, we had many Bible stories every day.
So just part of the rhythm so that they are learning like, okay, this is how I am created. I have a creator that is huge. I am created by God, I have a part in God’s story. All those things. And even having an understanding that sometimes life is not easy, if you could do all the Bible stories like Noah, not really easy building the arc and having the world destroyed, you’re not really easy so that kids can understand, oh, if I have struggles in the future, that’s actually not abnormal. That’s pretty normal. So when those struggles come, they’re not completely thrown off guard.
Elizabeth Stubblefield (06:47):
Definitely. One fun thing is that they do have an app now for the New City Catechism. So if you are on the go, you can do that. And it has fun little songs for your kids to learn, which is really helpful because it’s easy to have great intentions and it’s hard sometimes hard to follow through after the beginning.
But I think another thing, and echoing off what you mentioned Arlene, is reading the Bible to your kids from when they’re really young. I mean even when mine were newborns, I was just still, if I was getting ready to teach a Bible study, I’d be reading it out loud to them just because they don’t understand it, but they’re hearing my soothing voice and I’m still knowing, still getting into their hearts and wanting that just to be foundational, whether that’s with the Bible storybooks or even the Bible.
(07:36):
And then as we come up in life situations talking about it. So for example, we were going through a difficult time as a family and I was sitting down with one of my children and they were just going, oh, why is this happening? And so we started together rehearsing Bible stories. We knew, and I was with my son, he was probably not more than six at the time. And we would say, well, God really did allow Daniel to get thrown to the lions. And Joseph really got put in that pit. And then he would go back and forth with me and talk about these stories we knew and then say, but God wasn’t done writing the story yet.
And so I think laying that foundation and keeping on laying it right, but then that’s just the beginning to help them say, this isn’t just a story, but how do we connect this with our life And when life is hard or when it’s confusing, or when we say, is that a boy or is that a girl and what’s going on? And can that be fluid? Then we have something to go back to. And when you start it when they’re young, it helps to just anchor that. But even if they’re not young, it’s never too late to start. It’s harder to start when they’re older, but it’s never too late to start.
Katie Bergford (08:45):
That’s great. Thank you guys for your thoughts on that. So in this cultural moment, we are seeing that there is a huge struggle with identity and specifically then identity with gender. So some of the data is saying that about 40% of US, gen Zs and even 30% of young Christians in the church are identifying as L-G-B-T-Q. Why do you guys think that so many young people are attracted to this label? Maybe Arlene, do you want to jump into that?
Arlene Pellicane (09:17):
Yeah, so I think we really have to ask the question, how did this spread so quickly? So 20 years ago, we’re not talking about this. So how in 20 years are we talking about something as fundamental as like, hey, when a baby is born, you pretty much know this is a girl and this is a boy. This is not a difficult subject. So how is it that we have swayed that this ideology has been able to take 30 to 40% of our kids? That’s crazy.
So I think we have to look at what kids are getting on their phones, what are they looking at when they go on YouTube, when they go to TikTok, whatever. Think of it, if your child is spending, let’s be nice four hours a day, the average child is probably spending more like seven to nine hours a day, but let’s just give your kid four hours a day on the internet. Are they seeing something about God? Yeah, maybe for five minutes. But the rest of the time they’re being shown things that are very pro L-G-P-D-Q, sorry, my be sound like a P, but you know what I’m saying? So that’s what they’re being shown and it’s shown in a super good light.
(10:29):
Wow, this is how we are loving and kind, is by embracing. This is how we become who we really are, is by just acknowledging maybe I am trans. So they’re being fed this hour after hour after hour. And so to not be this way seems very strict and terrible and mean. So of course we want to be accepting. So I think the messaging has been so good. Who doesn’t want to be loving? Everybody wants to be loving, so let’s be loving. So the messaging has been very good. And then the time that they have with our kids to spread this, wow, it’s in their pocket and it’s all the time. So I think the consistency of the message going in and the way it’s been, it’s just been crazy how quickly it has taken over.
Elizabeth Stubblefield (11:20):
Yeah, it’s a great point. I think, also, it’s not simplistic in that some students may have been abused, or something happens that they haven’t told anyone. And so that it could be what draws them in out of a secret. But then for others, in talking to students often, sometimes they just want a place to belong.
(11:46):
And when I was growing up, you might say, well, oh, they’re a really athletic girl, or they’re a tomboy, or something like that. But now it’s like, oh, you know what? You just don’t realize that you’re really trans. And then they get kind of scooped up and then it’s like, oh, well I have my people and I’m loved and I’m accepted. And sometimes it’s as simple as that. And later they’re like, oh wait, I was just experimenting. That’s not really what I want. But depending on how much they get scooped up and brainwashed, some things are irreversible and sometimes that’s not the case.
Gabriel Pagel (12:25):
Those are really good thoughts. I think we love choice and we love to be in control of our choices. And I’ve had so many conversations with students or my own kids where if I’m not in control of what goes on around me or whatever, at least for this thing, I can be in control of it.
And so it’s something that a lot of our culture does where it’s I get to choose and it’s the most authentic thing I can do is choose to be what I want to be. And then everybody celebrates it, especially with this acronym. And if you’re looking for belonging, if you’re looking for control because you feel like your home life’s out of control or you can’t keep up with everybody around you, this little thing you make into a big identity thing and it is something you can control because we just say, yeah, you.
Katie Bergford (13:35):
That’s really insightful. Thank you guys for sharing about that. I’m hearing it’s like we have all these different inputs that are influencing us and influencing our kids. We know that social media is a huge influence on our kids. And Arlene, you mentioned that. So I’d love to hear from you guys. What boundaries do you have with your kids, if any, around social media, whether that’s TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, what boundaries do you guys have?
Arlene Pellicane (14:04):
I’ll go first. My kids are oldest. So we knew from the beginning we’re watching, we’re seeing this, we’re reading the research, we are seeing like, okay, this is not going to go well. And now that Jonathan, his book is out, Anxious Generation, a lot of people are saying, okay, this social media for kids is not going well.
So for our kids, they knew from the time they’re in elementary school, we’d be like, see that kid with an iPad? You’re not going to have one of those. See that kid playing the video game, not for you. So they knew all the way through our parents, our dinosaurs, but they love us and we have a lot of fun in our lives, but we are not getting social media, video games or phones all the way through high school. So we did it all the way through their senior year of high school and they would get their phones.
(14:51):
They came to Summit and that’s kind of how it did it. And we’ve got two out of three done that way. The third one is totally fine with this because what they have found is, guess what? In the absence of that, you get hobbies, you get real friendships, you have peace of mind, all those things.
You say, well, isn’t your child left out because they don’t have social media? Well, guess what, you give your kids social media and now they feel left out so much more often because they see more like, look what they’re saying about me. Look, they didn’t comment. Look what I wasn’t invited to where my daughter’s just like, they don’t have it. It’s just like, yeah, we don’t have it, and we’re kind of over it. So that whole idea that, oh, they’ll be so left behind if they don’t have it, we’ve really found that that has not been the case.
Katie Bergford (15:39):
Yeah, that’s good. That’s also bold in this day and age too.
Arlene Pellicane (15:44):
We’re the only ones. Truly, they’re saying, mom, we are the only ones in high school in San Diego public school without a phone. And I’m like, no, I get it. You are the only one. But you could find workarounds like they had Google Voice numbers where they could be in touch with all their sports teams and the true friends would still be their friends, whether they video game or not. And self-select the kind of friend you have. If your friend is like, I can’t be your friend because you don’t game or because you’re not on Instagram. It’s like, what kind of friend is that? So it actually, it kind of works well.
Gabriel Pagel (16:14):
Yeah, that’s encouraging to me. My oldest is only 14 and a half, but we’ve said no social media, no phones until 17, I think is what we’ve said it’s going to be. But we’ve been very, very intentional on helping them be part of that process. And so we’ll do things and we try super, not to be judgy or anything, but this was a suggestion by my friend Brett, but he would go out with his family and he would see a family that’s all on their iPads or their phones at dinner, and he’d say, does it look like they’re together to his kids?
And we’ll do that, where my kids will come back from their youth group event and they’ll say, these two kids were just right next to each other on their phones, texting each other and not listening to anything that’s going on. And so we’ve been working with them to see that it’s not actually relationship that happens. And then we’ve also been trying to teach our kids Jomo instead of fomo. We want them to have the joy of missing out. Sometimes. Really good things happen when you’re not there.
Elizabeth Stubblefield (17:36):
That’s good. That’s a tough one to learn. The JOMO, I mean, that’s hard. So what do you do about no phones with driving? And that’s probably a question a lot of parents will ask. Even what I thought. We just let our oldest have a phone with no social media on it. She can call and text. And even that has limited time and it cuts off except for to, we could specify people, but between babysitting and jobs and driving, it’s like, oh, when you go places, I do want you to be able to contact me. We don’t have payphones like we used to have. Right. Or easy access to phones. So this was the area where we landed.
Arlene Pellicane (18:19):
It’s such a good question. And please, as you’re listening, please know these are ideas. We are not judging you if you’re like, oh my word, my 14-year-old has a smartphone, they all hate me. No, that’s not what we’re trying to say. But in terms of that, I was the same way. Okay, my kid is starting to drive, they don’t have a phone.
And then my husband was so funny. He’s like, okay, they’re learning how to drive and you think this is the right time to give them a phone. So now they’re not only concentrating on driving, but now they’re distracted because of the phone. And then I was like, oh yeah, I guess I get that. So I think it could be a dumb phone that you have GPS, whether it’s a gab phone, whatever phone, the Troomi phone, but it has GPS. You can text, you can call, but it doesn’t have all the internet stuff. I think that’s a really, really good next thing, between no phone and the smartphone, is to go with a dumb phone.
Elizabeth Stubblefield (19:10):
An actual phone.
Arlene Pellicane (19:11):
An actual phone that doesn’t go on the internet.
Elizabeth Stubblefield (19:15):
Yeah, the actual phone, exactly.
Arlene Pellicane (19:15):
And then, I mean, I have a college age, one of my son’s friends and he’s got this huge flip phone and I’m like, what is that? And he literally said, I did this because I find I’m so much more present and happy when I’m doing this. So even for our drivers to realize, hey, you can have this thing that you need just for the directions, but you don’t need everything. And I think it could have a little bit of a comeback.
Katie Bergford (19:45):
Yeah, I hope it does. That’s great. Okay, so next question. Can you each share a story of where truth and love came together? Well, in a conversation you had about gender with your kids?
Gabriel Pagel (19:58):
Yeah, I have one. I actually have a few, but one cumulated, kind of, today actually. My kids got to go to their first ever sailing lesson today. And it was this thing put on a nonprofit, so it was free, it was all this really cool stuff. And I’m sitting there as they’re introducing themselves and the camp, or not camp, but instructor, introduced herself and she said, my pronouns are she/her. And I could see my daughter kind of just look like, what does that have to do with sailing?
(20:41):
Great. If you weren’t, how does that fit? And I could see that that came about, because she told me earlier today about how I have been very intentional about sometimes you’ll be in this situation where some people will say this sort of thing, or they’ll want to ask you your pronouns or whatever. And she had told me before she left, and then this thing happened at the sailing this dad, I’m always ready for it. I know that some people just need love and Jesus, and they don’t yet know their place. And that’s really cool. That’s so cool. Yeah, it was great. And she’s 12, so I’m excited about that.
Arlene Pellicane (21:28):
Wow, that’s amazing. What a good conversation. Yes.
Katie Bergford (21:32):
And so cool. That happened today. What a gift.
Gabriel Pagel (21:34):
Cool. Yeah, it was interesting. Yeah.
Katie Bergford (21:36):
Yeah, yeah. Cool timing.
Elizabeth Stubblefield (21:38):
I feel like even for probably the last several years we might be in a store and my kids, one of them would come whisper to me, is that a guy or is that a girl? I think that’s a guy. But why this? Or just commenting on whatever they were observing around them. So we would, I would say, well, we’ll talk about it when we leave the store. And then we would go ahead and discuss at the appropriate age what we could discuss at that point.
And something along the lines of like, well, yes, that was a guy. Obviously he’s confused or he’s hurting or he’s struggling, or you’re observing things that I’m glad you’re observing. And so we need to never whisper in front of someone like that, ask me questions, but love them and just treat them. You would treat any other people, care about them, learn their name, talk to them, look them in the eyes, love them. And so now we have, at a couple places we frequent, there’s two people in both places who have various points of transitioning. It was almost like those were getting ready for these situations that we now see frequently.
(22:57):
And the first time you could see their eyes getting big and a little confused. Thankfully they were not going to say anything. And we talked and left. And now when we go, they just talk to them and they’re loving to them and they pray for them. And one of them, they’re like, man, I really like that person. They’ve become a friend. Not like we hang out, although we would. But it’s like, oh, how are you doing? And they talk to them whenever they see them and care about them.
And I said, I’m so glad that you care about this person and you’ve gotten to know them because, and I don’t know that they would quite to the point of loving them, they don’t know them that well, but they act loving towards them and have a relationship with them. And I’m like, right, because you can’t see it as the other line of the argument.
You need to see them as people. We see all people and just love them and pray for them. And it’s been sweet to watch with one relationship in particular, just how that doing that has helped to develop it. And just to ask the Lord for an opportunity when it arises in these situations, to take the conversation further, but in the meantime, just to keep loving them and to know that they need Jesus. We all need Jesus.
Arlene Pellicane (24:11):
Katie, I have a podcast, the Happy Home podcast, and I have my girls edit it because that way they do it and then they have to hear all the things that my guests say. So one of my guests, Trisha Goyer, was talking about when her tween girl said, mom, I’m a bisexual. I think I’m a bisexual. And Tricia was like, you’re not a bisexual. And she’s like, why do you say that mom? Because you like boys. I know you like boys. Why do you think that you’re bisexual? She said, well, I think this girl is really pretty.
(24:39):
And then they went on to talk about just because you think a girl is really pretty, or even you find her attractive, I’d like to look at this girl. It doesn’t make you a bisexual. That’s not what that means. You can find other people attractive. So Lucy, my daughter heard this conversation and it’s helpful as she has friends who are saying they’re trans or maybe they’re gay or all these different words and things that they think they are. And for Lucy, that was really helpful to ask questions.
So what Tricia was talking about was to ask, well, why do you think you’re bisexual? You come to that conclusion and it just is a good way to start that conversation with them. And it is a hard line because you’re trying to teach your kids. You want to accept all these people as people and love them equally, but you are not trying to approve of what they do.
(25:30):
So you’re just kind of finding that line. And it’s hard for all of us. But I think that idea of her learning how to ask questions out of curiosity and care, how did you come to that conclusion? And then when you have the opportunity, I know she’ll always try to drop in. Well, I know that she’ll say, like, God loves you and she’s trying to get them to the point of, God created you and he’s got a special plan for you. And eventually, someday maybe to share, I really think you’re a girl, but just she’s waiting. All that isn’t happening in one conversation. But I think you are trying to speak the truth, but you’re also speaking in love.
Katie Bergford (26:07):
That’s good. Thanks for sharing that. It’s so helpful for me to be hearing other people talk about inaction, things that are happening for you and your kids. And just as I continue to think about the years ahead for me as I raise my son, it’s encouraging to think critically about that and cool that it seems that often it’s in the small moments that these conversations are happening, it’s not always a big expected moment. It’s like here today while your daughter was sailing, this happened.
(26:42):
So I think for me, that makes me want to be attentive day in and day out on how to be present as a parent. I would also love to learn from some of the things that you guys have done that maybe you feel like you’ve messed up in. We’ve all, we’re all human too, as parents. So what are some of the things that you wish you had done differently when raising your kids and some of the lessons you’ve learned from the mistakes that you’ve made in the past? Elizabeth, would you want to jump in on that one?
Elizabeth Stubblefield (27:15):
Some of them I think I’m still learning, right? There’s a point that’s like, okay, was that good? We were trying, for example, technology’s a big one. So it’s like, okay, we’re, we know we’re not doing social media, but when do we start teaching you good boundaries and how to text and when to text and to have conversations, not to have big conversations over text.
And there’s just a learning curve to saying, okay, are we introducing it at the right time and putting the right boundaries and watching the fruit of that still. And so I think that’s definitely a tricky one that I feel like, okay, we’re doing okay, but then I’m like, well, maybe we shouldn’t have introduced that yet. And then I listen to Jonathan Haidt’s book, and I’m like, well, actually, I think they would’ve gone through that process at whatever age we introduced it and shepherded them.
(28:06):
So I think there’s, in some of those things, the verdict’s kind of still out for me and I’m still learning. And I think it’s also so much dependent on different children because every child is different and they react and respond to the same parenting strategy totally differently. And so I think one thing that I might’ve done with my daughter that I’m like, oh, that worked great, or, oh, that didn’t work that great with my son, it works great, but then something else.
And so yeah, I don’t know that I have a package with a pretty bow of this was the definite fail and definite win. But with each kid, I think there’s just the conversations and the ongoing shepherding that’s so much in the moments of the day, which because it’s so many moments, it means there’s plenty of moments to fail, but then there’s lots more moments to catch up and to succeed.
(28:57):
And so I think a lot of it is that daily, I don’t want to say trial and error, we’re just seeing how it works out, but there is a little bit of that responsive, we know some things are really clear, and then there’s this room of how is this child responding in these conversations and how do we need to pull the reins back in?
So I think one for us has been just learning that balance of even texting, forget social media just because students will have whole conversations in texts that they wouldn’t have in person. And so when do you introduce that and shepherding them well in that? And so I think that’s kind of a tough one and not a clear black and white, but definitely something that I’m still figuring out and something to kind of lean into and learn.
Arlene Pellicane (29:50):
I think back, Katie, on the conversation I had with Dr. Jeff about just, biblical worldview and gender and identity, and he talked about the question, who am I? Instead of asking that to ask the question, whose am I? And so I know one of the kinds of regrets, and I’ll explain this, was I, they figured, okay, for my kids to know whose they are is for them to memorize the Bible, have a lot of Bible memory inside of them, and that way that’ll really help them.
So I was very like, I got three books. I have three kids. I got three journals. I picked a verse from every book of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. I thought, wouldn’t it be so cool if they knew a verse, one verse, from every book of the Bible? And I started when they were in elementary school and we had a lot of steam at the beginning, and by the time we hit the New Testament, we were really, really petering off.
(30:46):
And then I would do quizzes where I would give them a dollar for a verse and we’d have fun games and that would kind of perk it up a little bit. But when it was all said and done, I’m pretty sure we lost. About John, we just tanked. So my regret is you have these thoughts of this is what I want my kids to know, or this is what we’re going to do. And then you realize I didn’t do it. But the thing is, it’s like when you shoot for the moon and you don’t get the moon, but you got a lot further along. Then I realized if I never made that book, I would’ve been a lot further back.
(31:22):
So these things that we are regretting for us to realize, we just have to keep trying. Don’t let that it didn’t work out stop you. Just keep going. So for me, it was scripture memorization, but I am thrilled to tell you that even though they do not know every verse from that book, all three of my kids on their own journal memorize the Bible on their own, pick the verses they want to memorize and they do way better than me. And so thank the Lord God is working. That’s awesome.
Gabriel Pagel (31:56):
I think if I have one regret, and I mean my oldest is only 14 and a half, but I’m looking back and I’m seeing that there are a lot of times when the press of the world around me and the things to get done makes it so I don’t just be with them enough sometimes and I can just see that they want me around more.
(32:26):
And I know that there are times where there’s things we have to do, but they can be part of that process. And I mean, there’s an old missions book called When Helping Hurts, and when the kids come to help, it hurts. But it’s definitely something where they just enjoy being with their parents.
And I just, I’m looking back, especially with my oldest who gets to be the Guinea pig, I wish that I would really make that time to be with him more, spend 15 minutes a day reading with him and all that kind of stuff and all the way down through the line. That’s something I wish we in our family have kind of a saying that we’re trying to get going a little bit more. And it’s like, look, Google’s for information, wisdom comes from relationships. And we’re trying to really do that. And you don’t get relationships without being with people. Somebody once said, quantity time is what brings quality time. That’s my regret.
Katie Bergford (33:41):
So good. Thank you for sharing those things and being transparent in the honesty of, yeah, we’re still figuring this out. We all are. And yet the wisdom that you are pressing in, day in and day out. Yeah. Thank you for that. As a final question, I would love to hear a brief answer from you guys. What do you wish every Christian parent understood about this topic?
Gabriel Pagel (34:08):
I’ll start with that one. I think there’s a lot of things actually, but I think the biggest thing that I think I wish people who go through whatever sorts of navigation they have to go through in this topic, whether it’s we know someone who’s this, my children are trying or thinking about going down this route or whatever is that you’re not alone. And there’s a lot. And don’t isolate, don’t neglect church. Church is hugely important.
And then just practically, there’s some really good resources out there, Dr. Jeff and Dr. Kathy’s book being one of them. Glenn Stanton’s book that he wrote, Secure Daughters, Confident Sons. And then there’s actually some very high level philosophers working in this area too. Thomas Bogar, Alex Byrne from MIT are on our side and making some very good arguments that are very helpful.
Arlene Pellicane (35:24):
So I think I’d want parents to know, open the conversation, make it a very safe place to talk about things and really help your kids. Like my daughter Noelle, I was laughing. We were on an airplane and I was looking over her shoulder at what she was watching, and I told her, you watch YouTube like a man would watch YouTube, because one video, she’s got a panel of three guys and they’re talking about this car. She really likes cars. And then she’s watching Formula One and then she’ll be watching an Iron Man thing. And she’s just like, so I’m laughing with her.
And just for our kids to understand just because you like something that is more boys like that or more like girls like that, that means nothing. That means you have a varied interest in those things, and that’s a cool thing. So I think for parents really to lean in and encourage their kids that just because you don’t fit a particular stereotype that has nothing to do with your gender, has nothing to do with whether you are a boy or a girl.
(36:20):
And then really realizing that the 10th commandment of do not covet, I think seldom do we connect that to gender, but to help our children connect. Okay, when I want another body, I am actually coveting. And for us all to realize that we all have sins, and it’s that sin nature that’s like, well, I don’t want what you gave me. God, I want something else. I think I can do this better than you. But as parents, if we can be that safe place, help guide our kids, but also show them like this is a sin. When we say I want another body, you are coveting another body. Let’s pray together that you’ll find contentment and peace in the body that you’re in.
Elizabeth Stubblefield (37:08):
I echo what y’all said and would just add that we have an enemy who we can’t see, but we don’t need to forget. And the battle is really a spiritual one. And from the beginning in the garden when Satan was really tempting Adam, and Eve was saying like, God’s holding out on you basically. He doesn’t know what’s best. He doesn’t want what’s best for you. And it’s really the same lie twisted in a different form.
And so just remembering that it is a spiritual battle. We have an enemy that we cannot see, and so we need to be on our knees praying for our kids and for our kids’ friends and for our communities. And also Hebrew says that Jesus is our great high priest and that he sympathizes with our weakness in every way that he was tempted in every way yet without sin.
(37:59):
And so obviously he lived on earth in a different time than us, but that verse is still true, that he was tempted in every way yet without sin. And so we, in every issue of parenting, it’s like he’s given us second Peter says everything we need for life and godliness in Christ.
And so it’s easy in these topics and many others to panic, and we need to stop and get on our knees and to know that he is the source of wisdom. He is the source of peace. He will guide us. He is our great heart high priest, and he’s interceding on behalf of us and of our children. And so we don’t want to put down our most important weapons in praying for our kids and in remembering the battle is his, and that he understands and that he will meet us in our time of meet He promises. So yeah.
Aaron Atwood (38:48):
Katie, I want to jump in and ask you, after those hundreds of conversations you’ve had with students, what do you wish Christian parents knew as they go into this contact sport of parenting?
Katie Bergford (39:03):
Yeah, that’s good. I think I’ve seen in students a craving to be known and that many students actually don’t feel known, whether that’s by their parents or by their friends, anyone. And there’s a whole variety of reasons for that. Even like we’ve talked about today, maybe it’s social media, maybe it’s other distractions, busyness, whatever. But many students I think are craving deep connection and don’t feel that they have that.
And so I would really, really hope that parents would sit across from their kids and get to know them, and many parents do. If you’re listening to this podcast, you love your kids and you want to get to know them, but maybe it’s getting to know them in a new way and setting aside time for that. And yeah, getting to know a hobby that they’re interested in or helping champion that.
I know that something I’m loving about parenting so far is getting to know my son and being surprised by his little personality. He’s different than I could have dreamed up. And so I’m praying that I can maintain that type of attitude as a parent, that I’m constantly trying to get to know, who is this little boy? And how can I champion who God has made him to be? And yes, teach him what is right and wrong, and simultaneously let me be astounded by how God has fearfully and wonderfully created him. So yeah, I think I would want parents to continue to press in, to get to know their kids.
Aaron Atwood (40:46):
This has been my favorite episode so far. Thank you all so much for being with us and just letting me be a fly on the wall. But I hope our listeners just heard this deep conversation. It’s really rich. I took away from this that Christian parenting does not have a step by step, step-by-step formula for us to follow and then get a result. It’s not a math equation. It really is life on life, discipleship, doing the best we can with what we have, being empowered by the Holy Spirit and our relationship with Jesus. God wants us to thrive in this, but he wants to walk with us in it too.
So thank you all for your transparency and for having this time with us here on the Upside Down Parenting Podcast. I hope all of you listeners will subscribe like this so that other people can get this content and then share it with people. That is really the only way this content can get out into the world. So I just thank you all for being with us and we’ll see you on the next episode.