Why do so many teens seem to lose spiritual interest, disconnect from faith, or drift into apathy? And what can parents do about it?
In this episode of the Upside-Down Parenting Podcast from Summit Ministries, hosts Matt Jones and Janel Greig open with real-life stories to highlight the surprising moments when God uses ordinary experiences to shape our kids’ hearts. Then they dive into the rising challenge of spiritual apathy among teens. Instead of simply blaming attitude or immaturity, Matt and Janel explore the deeper heart issues behind apathy and unpack key reasons today’s teens disengage spiritually. They discuss how parents can use these reasons as “heart check-ups” to understand what’s really going on beneath the surface.
Along the way, they discuss practical parenting stories—humility in parenting, asking forgiveness without excuses, heart-motivation conversations, managing fear when a teen pulls away, and creating rhythms of honesty, grace, and discipleship in the home. But there is hope! apathy doesn’t happen overnight, and neither does growth—but God meets parents and teens in the middle of the mess. Next week, they’ll turn to what parents can do to help reignite a teen’s desire for God.
If you have a question you’d like answered on a future Q&A episode, email podcast@summit.org and include “Upside-Down Parenting” in the subject line.
Episode 20: Summary & Transcript
Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.
Episode Summary
Hosts Janel and Matt continue their series on apathy in teens on the Upside Down Parenting Podcast. They begin with personal anecdotes about their children’s sports seasons and the importance of having other adults speak into their kids’ lives. The core of the conversation focused on a book by Rob and Amy Rienow, Five Reasons for Spiritual Apathy in Teens. They discussed three of the five reasons outlined in the book: a parent’s heart being disengaged from their teenager, a teenager’s heart turning away from the parent, and the presence of secret sin. Both hosts shared personal stories to illustrate these points, emphasizing the importance of parental modeling, humility, and building trust. They concluded by previewing the next episode, where they planned to discuss the remaining two points: a lack of spiritual nourishment and a spirit of rebellion.
Episode Transcript
Janel Greig (00:00):
Well, welcome to the Upside Down Parenting Podcast from Summit Ministries. Parenting is one of the greatest adventures ever. Yet we all know that parenting can also feel overwhelming and confusing. The great news is that you don’t have to do it alone. We are here to walk with you as you raise your kids to embrace God’s countercultural truth, his upside down kingdom, and champion a biblical worldview.
Matt and I are back today and we’re excited to continue this series on apathy in teens and take a look at some more information. Matt, how are you doing and how are things in your world?
Dr. Matt Jones (00:39):
That’s a great question. Thank you, Janel. I’m excited to be back. I’ve got to tell a quick, well, I have two stories I want to tell.
Janel Greig (00:45):
Great.
Dr. Matt Jones (00:46):
But the first one is about I teach the Sunday school class, and in this Sunday school class we have this 97-year-old guy that looks like he’s in his late seventies and eighties, but he’s had a few health issues and he missed a few weeks, and so he asked me to pray for him. So I’ve been praying for him and then he came back and I said, we’ll just call him Dwight.
I said, Dwight, how are you doing? He says, I’m better. I’m glad I’m back. I said, well, does this mean I can stop praying for you? And he looks at me, he says, no, I’ll die. So I’m like, no pressure here, but I’ll keep praying for you, Dwight. And so now I have another person on my prayer list to connect with, and he’s doing well so far. So yeah.
Janel Greig (01:30):
97.
Dr. Matt Jones (01:31):
I know. It’s awesome. He’s so alert and so witty and I’m like, I hope I last that long. Yeah, I mean he had a quick wit that day. How about you? How are things going in your world?
Janel Greig (01:43):
They’re going great. It’s a crazy season. We’re in a season of switching from sports, from fall sports to winter sports. So the two older kids, Reagan and Keaton, they were in cross country this fall, which, are any of your kids cross country runners?
Dr. Matt Jones (01:57):
We had one cross country runner and I got some great stories about that, but I’m interested in what your kids are doing with that.
Janel Greig (02:03):
We’ll have to delve into that. I’ll tell you, I didn’t grow up a runner and the cross country world is a very different world, but it’s an awesome group of kids. I love that group of kids, and to have two kids in the same sport has been a huge blessing. And then our youngest is wrapping up. He wrapped up baseball and started basketball. So I like moving indoors this time of year, to the indoor sports.
But one of the things that has really hit home, I would say while we were doing the end of season sport celebrations, it’s so cool to see coaches and we’re at a private Christian school, so the coaches are all believers. They have to sign the statement of faith. They’re considered ministerial employees. So we know that they’re discipling and mentoring the students more, just as more than just student athletes, but actually discipling them.
(02:49):
And it’s so cool to see them pour in, but then speak into the kids at the end of season of what they’ve seen in them and those character traits. And Mike, our kids are not going to be D1 athletes. They do sports for fun, which is great, but to have their character and those giftings called out is such a cool thing as a parent to see, but also for those kids to hear.
And I think that’s something we’ve talked about before on here, is the importance of other adults in your child’s life speaking into them. So that’s been a cool thing in the last couple weeks here in our household.
Dr. Matt Jones (03:24):
Yeah, absolutely. And I can relate with you in terms of the cross country. I’ve never run so much to watch a sport because you try to see your kid at different, and I’m like, you got to be kidding me. But it is so important. That’s one of the things that my wife and I have been very blessed with and highly value, is recognizing that we’re not designed to do parenting alone. It is awesome to have coaches, youth pastors, while it’s our responsibility, spiritually guide and direct.
(03:53):
You need some other voices that are saying similar and sometimes different things to help them think about what they believe and why. I remember there was a time whenever my oldest daughter, she came to us and said, I don’t know if I am a Christian because that’s what I actually believe, or it’s just what I’ve grown up with. And so she went through this journey and my immediate reaction was, this is awesome. You are wrestling with this. And I think she was 14 or 15 years old, and we actually flew her out to a very close family member to her that could speak into that just so she heard another voice and really wrestled with those things.
And now she literally loves the Bible. She’s taking some interpreting the Bible classes, some upper division Bible classes at a university and it’s awesome, awesome. We get to talk about the Bible at a different level and we’re just so thankful that we had some of those people in place to say, hey, Hannah’s struggling. We’re here, but we also wanted to send her. And she loved it. It was redemptive, it was restorative for her.
So when we think about this, I just think about how important it is as parents that have the humility to say, this is not all on you. However, we have the opportunity to step up and say, hey, you know what? There’s other people that we trust that you can talk to on that. And it’s been a huge, huge blessing.
Janel Greig (05:23):
Yeah, that’s awesome. I think humility, God always gives us humility checks too, if we’re willing to take those. And I think partnering with other adults, we do, like you said, as parents have that primary responsibility. And that’s something hopefully that we can be providing to the listeners here is some support, some ideas, but also get out there, get out there and get help. Get those youth leaders at your church, get your family friends that are firm believers that Matt, similar to that, that you can help send your kids to for that parenting, discipling. Yeah.
God kept us humble at that cross country. Cross country because at the end of it, he told all the students, he said, now you guys stay seated. And they do buffet, banquets, potlucks, which I’m not a fan of because probably because of my Lutheran upbringing, I don’t know. And he said, students let parents and families go first.
(06:17):
And so who was the first one in line, our youngest who’s technically not on the team, so keep us in check, but definitely not apathy there. But we’ve been talking about apathy the last few episodes. So today we want to dig in a little bit more looking at the reasons for spiritual apathy in teens. And one of the things that we’ve done is define apathy. We defined apathy as just a, not really a care, something without passion. I
think in our last episode we were talking about zeal from Romans 12 and how that is the opposite of apathy. But Matt and I had an opportunity to read a book by Rob Rienow and his wife Amy, and it was a great read, Matt, I think you enjoyed it also.
Dr. Matt Jones (07:05):
Yeah, I got a lot out of it. And the nice thing for me is it, it was short and condensed but also impactful, and it gave me a few things to think about. So for those of us who don’t have a lot of time to sit down and read, this was 95, 96 pages and I nailed it in an afternoon. And again, it was important and impactful and it caused me to come away with a few questions for me to wrestle with and think about.
Janel Greig (07:31):
Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that I loved about the book too is it wasn’t just a, hey, this is a frustrating season with your teen. You just sit down, wait it out. It’s a little bit of a call to action. Looking at, and so I would say a pick up the mic challenge, a call to action, not to just wait it out, but as a parent we have to step up.
But one of the things that Rob and Amy Rienow did in this book was to draw out five reasons that can be used as a series of checkups or conversations with your teens when they’re struggling. And we’ll look at those briefly. The common factors that they pointed out were the parent’s heart not being turned toward the teenager, the teenager’s heart not turned toward the parent, the presence of secret sin and a lack of spiritual nourishment as well as a spirit of rebellion.
(08:24):
So we’re just going to briefly touch on those if that’s okay with you, Matt. I kind of wanted to start and read a quote because the first one, the parents’ heart at being disengaged is the first one that they call out. And as parents, this can be a little bit of a, oh, I don’t want to go there or hit close to home because as parents, we might be juggling work ministry, all the responsibilities.
And so I really like the analogy that Rob and Amy put in the book, and this is a quote from the book, why would a teenager be at risk for spiritual apathy if the heart of his or her parent is not turned toward them? If an adolescent has a disconnected parent, it’s like the head coach of their team, and Matt will appreciate this with his love for baseball. It’s like a head coach of their team sitting on the bench not offering any direction. There’s a leadership vacuum, a lack of guidance, no encouragement coming from the one who’s in the proper position to provide those things.
Just as a team becomes lifeless and rudderless when their coach stops coaching, a team can become indifferent when parents are not engaged in providing spiritual leadership. And this reckons back a little bit to the many times we’ve mentioned outsourcing of the discipling. How have you seen this, Matt? What are your thoughts on this point?
Dr. Matt Jones (09:45):
Well, I really appreciate the point of, listen, you as a parent, your hearts do need to be engaged, and I really appreciate that you brought up. We have so many things vying for our attention, and you’re absolutely right that we need to be engaged, we need to be involved. And I really liked the question that you brought up and I think came from Rob’s book, Rob and Amy’s, excuse me, said, would your children say that your greatest desire for them is that they love God with all their hearts?
And that was powerful for me to consider because it is definitely one of my desires. I don’t know if it’s my greatest. I think there are some things I’ve got to think about and wrestle with because for me to take care of my children well and direct them to love God with all their hearts, I got to start with my own heart in terms of loving God. And so I really like the question. I know it’s in my top five questions, but what I would respond in saying is, could your kids recognize in the life that you live, whether or not you love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength? Because as we talk about this a little bit more, I think modeling is going to be so, so key.
(11:09):
For kids to recognize that parents are picking up the mic, they’re fighting against their own apathy to encourage and lead, as you were pointing out with the baseball team, encourage and lead the baseball team. So that’s kind of what hit home with me was I love the question, but then I took it a step further and say, if you were to interview my kids on this podcast, would they say my dad’s greatest desire is to love God with all his heart and soul and mind and strength, and maybe we can have the kids on someday to see how they would answer to hold us accountable on that. But that’s my initial response to that.
How do you do with, or how do you encourage that? And this will be a little bit of review, but how do you encourage that loving God with all your heart, Janel?
Janel Greig (12:01):
Yeah, I think one of the things that I want my kids to see and not just see to check a box, but I do want them to see how important my faith is to me. And so part of that is that I have to possess something. I have to have that time with God, my first love. If they don’t see that they’re going to see it’s not important or think it’s not important to me.
I think in our household, for my husband, for Christian and I both, it’s in making sure we’re setting aside that time and my kids don’t actually see me unless it’s a weekend in my time in the word, because I get up at four o’clock and I do my time with God and with coffee, say, yeah. And so by the time they’re up, I’ve packed their lunches and we’re ready to roll out the door. But I think that’s part of it is just that modeling in and the interactions with others and serving others. What about you?
Dr. Matt Jones (12:52):
Well, as I was watching, as I was reading Rob’s book, Five Reasons for Spiritual Apathy in Teens, I was struck by what he’s asking us to do and pursue is to parent with a humble heart. And I really like being right, and this is a challenge for me, and he’s asking us to not only recognize where our hearts are, but he’s asking us that if we’re not living this love of God and love of others, well, that we, in particular in our family, we go and apologize. We go and ask for forgiveness.
And I was asking my wife about this as she and I were interacting and getting ideas. She goes, Matt, I tried to be quick to acknowledge when I wronged the kids. And I was a little slow in recognizing that. And she was very good at, in most cases, saying, Matt, you need to go back on how you handled that. And the majority of time I agreed, sometimes I was a little stubborn, but this was huge. And he said something I think is really important in terms of asking for forgiveness. That really stuck out to me because my wife and I had been doing that for years. So can I share that real quick?
Janel Greig (14:12):
Please do. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Jones (14:14):
So it’s interesting that he pointed out, and this was something like I said that my wife and I intentionally did is we asked forgiveness without using the word, but because once you use the word, but once you say something contrary to say, you did, I’m sorry for this, but this is why I responded that way, you’re justifying your action and it’s really not an apology.
And I can remember several times where we had made that commitment not to include the buts there. And I remember in my mind saying, I have an excuse as to why I did. What did that I’m asking for forgiveness for, however I cannot use, but or however, because I like to get around the but by saying however. And so all these words, I was like, okay, how do I remain faithful to say forgiveness?
Because I think that helps in having a heart, encouraging your teenager to have a heart that even though they may feel like there’s a need for resistance or turning away, they may have seen the model of humility that you’ve had and say, okay, it’s okay to be wrong. It’s okay to ask forgiveness. And have you had any experiences in terms of your kids clamming up or pushing away to demonstrate they’ve struggled with this teen resistance or turning away that Rob talks about, or Rob and Amy. Excuse me.
Janel Greig (15:38):
Yeah, for sure. I would say more with one than the other two. With our daughter, she’s very much an introvert, and so I think it’s more of a natural inclination for her to turn inward. But with that said, his posture of humility definitely carries over into the second one that you’re alluding to of the teenager’s heart turning away and what parents, we have to go to our kids and say, hey, what’s going on? I’m concerned about you.
And so we’ve done that with our daughter. We’re in a good season right now where there’s no apathy and none of that. But that comes from practicing and having those open conversations of trust and being able to humbly go to our kids and model that saying, hey, something feels off. Are we okay? Did I do something to hurt you? Rob and Amy used that example of, I think they say, asking your child to give their heart to you. Have you and Cat practiced that or something like that in your household, Matt?
Dr. Matt Jones (16:40):
Yeah, not necessarily that language, but we’ve said, hey, ours has been more of trust, and we have tried to work from this perspective of trust until the trust is broken. And that has helped not only in terms of our kids not becoming too resistant or turning away. We have some stories with that, but we can talk about those some other time. But that has been really good in terms of we’re going to trust you until the trust is broken. And then once that’s broken, that gives us the opportunity to not only talk about that, but also because that’s broken. There is a component where you’ve got to come back and trust us with your heart again.
And whenever a kid, and this is kind of Rob’s third point, one of the things that causes apathy, excuse me, is the presence of secret sins in the teen or the kid’s life that gives them the opportunity. If you’ve built that trust once it’s been broken, they may be more open to sharing some of those sins because I don’t know about you, but if you’re engaged as a parent, you can usually tell that there’s a secret sin going on with the kid. Absolutely. Have you got any experience with that?
Janel Greig (17:55):
Yeah, absolutely. I think coming out of the COVID years where our kids all got access to laptops for school, for remote learning early, that was kind of one of those, we were thrown into a situation where we better figure out, and our kids don’t have cell phones, they have one that they share. So we are now, and that could be a whole other two or twelve episodes, right? Tech, but there was a season where when they were all exposed to that, one of our kids, they were looking at things on the internet, and it wasn’t anything crazy worrisome, but it was, oh gosh, we got to put boundaries on this.
And it came out because I could tell something was off, asked some questions and the conversation, and there were definitely tears because the child knew I’m doing something I shouldn’t be doing, which as you just alluded to, you trust till you can’t. And then it’s a conversation, well, what can we do? But also we want to protect you, and this is why we want to protect you from this or from what God didn’t intend. Yeah. What about you, Matt? Do you guys, have you had any experience with that in your house?
Dr. Matt Jones (19:05):
Yes, very much. And we’ll go back to a story with my son as a young man, he said something he shouldn’t have at school, and he said something he shouldn’t have at school. And the teacher got in touch with my wife, and he essentially lied about what he said for four days. But you could see the crumpling in his heart and his mind, just to be transparent on this particular case, my wife was blinded kind of by what happened here because she just said, my son would not lie to me about this. And I’m in the background going, Cat, this kid is lying.
Rob talks about good kids even deal with secret sin in her life, and I am careful with the “good kids” language. I’m putting those in quotation marks for those who are just listening. But she lost sight that this young man, very young, was capable of being deceptive. But I was picking up on it. This is one of the very few times she was off and I was on, and we found out after four days, he finally came and confessed that he had lied about that.
And we asked him, well, why’d you lie about it? He says, well, I knew it was wrong, but I knew that the consequence for lying about it would be that you would take away my Legos. And I said to him, so son, your stuff is more important than your character in that moment.
(20:36):
And son, we got to have a relationship where we got to have a relationship. And I actually said a little bit more stronger. I like alliteration. I said, your crap is more important than your character. And I think that stuck with him because once you lie and have that broken, that relationship broken, then it takes a long time to build that back. And so we had a standard in hopes to give our kids a safe space for having those conversations. We really had a rule.
Listen, you’ll never get in trouble for being honest with us. You’ll never get in trouble for asking any question you want to ask. Now, it doesn’t mean there won’t be consequences for the activity for your good and our family’s good, but you need to know you’ll never get a negative consequence for being honest with us.
So Janel, as I was looking at this, you really have some good questions, and I think we’re going to shift here for just a moment and follow up on two of other Rob’s points in terms of a lack of spiritual nourishment and the spirit of rebellion. But it’s interesting as we’re talking about these things where Romans, we got to keep that in mind because kind of our verses, we looked at Romans 12 verses 9, 10, and 11 on our previous episodes. But today, it’s rejoice in hope.
(21:57):
Be patient in tribulation and be constant in prayer, rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer. And as I’ve listened to you, it’s very clear that you pray for your kids, and that is so important. But I find with apathy that sometimes you’ve lost hope. And we want to be able to say, listen, there is hope that you can rejoice in. I wanted to tell one more story.
My wife and I, when our kids were about, I think they were six, eight, and ten, we went and saw Chris Tomlin at Red Rocks for a worship service. And it was great. And then we mentioned this on a few podcasts ago that we were able to go, and first of all, Janel, I had such hope as I was looking amongst the crowd, just the number of people praising, praising God together in the midst of Red Rocks.
And if you all ever have the chance to go to Red Rocks, please do it. It is an incredible concert. But there we actually had access to several tickets and we had our kids, again, 10 years later, we took a very similar picture.
(23:14):
And my oldest daughter brought her fiance, my youngest daughter brought her boyfriend. My son stood beside me, and we brought a family friend, one of those family friends our kids could be trusted by and invested in. And Janel, to just say, okay, to watch your kids worship and to watch the guys that they’re interested in and one marrying worship, I said, Cat, what was your favorite part of the concert?
And I really liked Chris Tomlin, and we both said that at this point in the life of our kids, they are pursuing, worshiping the God of the universe. And we’ve got to rejoice in that. We’ve got to celebrate. That’s awesome. Not because it’s my family, but it’s because whenever you see your kids pursue the Lord, you’ve got to figure out ways not only to encourage it, but also make it possible.
And that’s what we’re going to set up for our next episode with the lack of spiritual nourishment and the spirit of rebellion and engaging in that. As we look at another verse in Romans, I feel like I talked too long there. Any thoughts or responses on that, Janel?
Janel Greig (24:24):
No. Well, I want to go to Red Rocks. That sounds great.
Dr. Matt Jones (24:27):
It’s amazing.
Janel Greig (24:28):
But I also think that’s a beautiful example, Matt, of you and Cat and what you’ve set the normal rhythms for your family, that you have three adult children or pretty much adult children that still want to go with you to a concert, and then it’s no greater joy to see them worshiping the Lord there in that setting. That’s a beautiful, beautiful example. I think of the opposite of apathy. And not that you guys haven’t had your seasons of that too, but those moments that we get from the Lord are such a blessing to see that.
So I think that’s a very positive reminder of, keep putting that work in. And if when the apathy comes, it’s not just a sit back, it’s a, okay, what can I do as a parent to get around this, to solve the problem, to get to the root of it? I love that.
Dr. Matt Jones (25:15):
Well, and it is, it’s by the grace of God, but we also have a responsibility as parents to be engaged, to give our kids the opportunity to be engaged. And so we just thank you all for joining us on this episode of the Upside Down Parenting Podcast. As we’ve seen today, apathy doesn’t usually appear overnight, and we can talk a little bit more about that.
There’s a song called Slow Fade by Casting Crowns. Have you ever heard that one, Janel? Slow Fade by Casting Crowns. It just says, hey, it’s a slow fade into sin. You don’t wake up one morning and your kids are apathetic. You don’t wake up one morning and you as parents are apathetic. You don’t wake up one morning and decide you’re going to steal from the local grocery store. It’s a slow fade into those things, and it grows quietly in the heart.
(26:07):
And so whether it starts in us as a parent or in our kids, or as it’s growing in our culture around us, the good news is that God never leaves us there. He’s given us his spirit, he’s given us his church, he’s given us community. He’s even given us this awesome Upside Down Parenting Podcast with Janel and myself.
So next week we’ll continue the conversation by talking about what parents can do, how to help our teens care about God again, and what practical steps possibly can reignite passion in our home, especially in light of that nourishment. So we’ll talk about maybe some causes of the lack of nourishment, but then what can reignite that?
So if you have questions for us, we’d love to hear from you and answer them in one of our Q and A episodes. You can reach us at podcast@summit.org. That’s podcast@summit.org. And in the subject line, please include upside down Parenting so we know you’re submitting a question for the show.
Janel, thanks for working with me again today. It’s great to be members of the Summit family, and we thank you all for tuning in and we hope to see you or hear you, or you hear us next time.