On this episode, we’re continuing our conversation about apathy—and how we can push back with courage and purpose. As parents, how can we resist the tide of indifference and take bold action? How can we help our kids avoid falling into the same trap? The call to action may look different for each of us, but the heart is the same: pick up the mic. Don’t defer, delay, or disengage. Step in. Speak up. Be part of shaping a worldview grounded in truth, courage, and love. So, let’s dive in!
Episode 18: Summary & Transcript
Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.
Episode Summary
In this episode, Matt and Janel continue their conversation on the topic of apathy, focusing on how to combat it within the home. They discuss that overcoming apathy requires more than just prayer and Scripture reading; it necessitates intentionality in relationships, both with children and others. They ground their discussion in biblical principles, particularly from Romans 12, and emphasize the “pick up the mic” challenge, in which they call for parents to take a tangible, intentional step to counter indifference in their families.
Episode Transcript
Dr. Matt Jones (00:00):
Welcome to the Upside Down Parenting Podcast from Summit Ministries. Parenting is one of the greatest adventures ever. Yet we all know that parenting can feel overwhelming and confusing. The great news is that you don’t have to do it alone. We’re here, Janel and I, to walk with you as you raise your kids to embrace God’s countercultural truth, his upside down kingdom, and champion a biblical worldview.
On this episode today, we’re continuing our conversation about apathy and how we can push back with courage and purpose. As parents, how can we resist the tide of infers and step boldly into action? How can we help our kids avoid falling into the same trap? The call to action may look different for each of us, but the heart is still the same. Pick up the mic. Don’t defer, don’t delay, don’t disengage. Step in, speak up. Be part of shaping a worldview, grounded in truth, courage, and love.
So let’s dive in. Janel, it is great to see you today. How are you doing? What’s going on?
Janel Greig (01:12):
Great to see you too, Matt. We’re just plugging along over here with a student driver in the household and working our way through that. So that’s a reality here right now.
Dr. Matt Jones (01:24):
And what student driver number is this? Is this one, two, or three?
Janel Greig (01:28):
This is number one for us, and I still can’t figure out why there’s not any books on how to navigate your student driver. It’s a fun one.
Dr. Matt Jones (01:39):
Yeah. My kids intentionally ask for their mother to be the student driver, teacher trainer. I can get a little intense sometimes.
Janel Greig (01:52):
It’s shocking.
Dr. Matt Jones (01:52):
Yeah. Well, as we talk about apathy, I had no apathy when it came to my kids driving and they would testify to that. And so it’s been, yeah, I’m grateful we got all three drivers and so may God’s grace be with you on that.
Janel Greig (02:13):
I sure need it. Thank you.
Dr. Matt Jones (02:14):
Yeah. Well, congrats on that phase of life, but it’s great to see you too. We’re in our second talk, second podcast on Apathy, and we’d like to wrestle with today how overcoming apathy actually starts in the home. So what things stood out to you in terms of our first episode, Janelle, just as a quick recap to hopefully entice folks who are picking up on this second episode to maybe go back and listen to the first one.
Janel Greig (02:42):
Yeah, I think we hit on quite a few points and just kind of laid the foundation for this series that we’re stepping into what is apathy? It’s that indifference and the struggle with that. How do you engage a teenager or a child or a fellow believer that is in an apathetic season? It’s common for all of us, and there’s different causes. There’s a busyness problem we talked about that can play into an apathetic home, and that faith, that faith formation of our kids, that’s so important.
If we’re not cultivating a zeal for the Lord in our homes, then we’re going to possibly end up with apathetic kiddos, and that should be the furthest thing from what we’re desiring for what God has for them. I think we didn’t quite give a pickup the mic challenge in the last episode. I think that’s something we’re going to look to do in these.
(03:37):
So hopefully we can leave our listeners with some action steps of, Hey, pick up the mic this week and try this. And we’d love to hear some feedback too as that comes up. What are you doing in the home? We talked about, in the homes a little bit, the importance. And over our last few episodes, not just the last one, but the other three that we did, we talked about the rhythms in the homes and how important it’s to have those daily conversations to show our kiddos.
And I think Matt, in the last episode, you talked about not just to do it, to go through the motions, but to do it because of that faith formation modeling a zeal for scripture and prayer is so important, and that’s something we should be doing for our own walk because if we’re not possessing a zeal for the Lord, we don’t have that to pass on, but that helps model that for our kids in the household. What are some of the things that you guys are doing or that you think are important for overcoming apathy in the home?
Dr. Matt Jones (04:36):
Yeah, that’s a great question and I do not want to minimize prayer and scripture reading. Those really are key. However, that I find is the solution that a lot of times people just rely on without thinking about tons of other options. So one of the things that we do is that we have one of these core values that are intentional relationships.
And so whenever we are engaging in relationship, not only with our kids but with the number of people we have in our home, it is very, very intentional. We’ll sit around the table and we will discuss important issues that either our guests are engaging in or that our kids are wrestling with. And we try to say, all right, what is a biblical response here? And what’s cool now that my kids are a little bit older is we don’t always agree.
(05:33):
We agree in terms of here’s the biblical principle, love genuinely. But we’re not always on the same page of the expression of, what does it look like for love to be genuine? And so for us, fighting apathy is saying, I am not going to be passive about relationships. I’m not going to be a passive about relationships with people that come into our home. I’m not going to be passive about my relationship with my, I’m not going to be apathetic about my relationship with my kids. I am seeing them as an intentional person, an intentional opportunity to engage in someone who is an image bearer of the guy of the universe.
And so one of the things that was impressed upon me whenever I was in a youth group, my youth pastor had a huge influence on my life. He reminded me, he says, Matt, it’s my opinion that the most important person that you ever interact with is the person that’s right in front of you.
(06:32):
And that said to me, I don’t have the option of being apathetic when it comes to relationships because, and my kids have seen this, that my wife and I are very intentional. We spend a lot more time asking questions to find out, Hey, what’s going on in the heart? And so scripture and prayer are so important, but we’ve also added the element of being intentional with our relationships to encourage the value of seeing, here’s what a genuine relationship can look like. How about you? What have been other things besides community or excuse me, besides scripture or prayer?
Janel Greig (07:16):
Yeah, no, that’s great. I love the intentionality with the fellow image bearers, and that’s something that’s so important. I think serving together, whether that’s at church or an opportunity in the community or if that’s, and sometimes that looks a little bit different. Maybe that’s somebody at church that needs help in their home with something and you and your kids are going to help that brother or sister in Christ.
And being, again, that intentionality. And that’s something too where it’s not just you’re saying, well, this is what God tells us to do. This is what we’re doing, and this is why we’re doing this, to show the love of God. And again, there’s not always zeal in that from our kids maybe. But if we’re modeling that this is what we’re called to because this is an image bearer, we care about them, this is how we’re showing love, that apathy is no longer going to be present.
Dr. Matt Jones (08:12):
Well, and I’ll add one more thing that we have found that helps is if we can give those serving opportunities that connect with our kids either talents and abilities, if they have not come to Christ yet, or giftings if they’ve been filled with the Holy Spirit to live out those gifts. And so knowing your kids and their gifts and talents and abilities and being intentional, saying, wait, actually serving is fun. Making a meal for someone who needs a meal and bringing it over is fun. That can help fight against apathy also. And so yeah, I love that idea. In terms of serving, does anything else come to mind?
Janel Greig (08:57):
I think the intentionality in the home, I love that you touched on that for relationships. I think that’s something that we’re doing, but I think that’s something that should be focused on and encouraged. I think last, in our last episode, we talked a little bit about Charlie Kirk and Voddie Baucham and the platforms that they had.
And I think what Charlie modeled in his intentionality with relationships and seeing the person that he was talking to and engaging with and dialoguing and being present as an opportunity to share the gospel is something that’s so important and can be modeled. I think Voddie emphasized the family as a laboratory in a sense. It’s a controlled environment to be able to test things and model things and work with your kids. And you talk about finding their spiritual gifts or their talents. The home is an environment where we can do that. We can test and refine our kids, we can instill the values and the rhythms of daily life, of discipline, of serving, of gifting.
And I think again, all of those things are so important in having a zeal, the opposite of apathy not being indifferent, but also that intentionality. I think that’s a word. I appreciate you sharing that because that’s a word that’s really sticking with me today in our episode. It’s that intentionality when neglect sets in, when we’re not intentional, things kind of go by the wayside. I think that’s really, really important.
Dr. Matt Jones (10:29):
And I like to think we’ve got so many biblical heroes that fought against the possibility or even apathy itself. And Paul, and we’ll come back to Paul here in a minute in terms of Romans 12, but I mean even Jesus, not that he struggled with apathy, but he gave people the opportunity to be engaged and to be intentional. And I’m a big fan.
My students kind of get tired of me sometimes saying, listen, we are called to be like Jesus and we are capable because we have the same Holy Spirit to reflect his character and his priorities. And Jesus gave multiple opportunities for his disciples to go and serve. He gave multiple opportunities for them to go out and proclaim the gospel.
And one of my favorite stories is in Mark chapter 6 where he says to the guys, Hey, go and feed these people. They’re hungry. And they said, well, how do we go about doing that? And Jesus walks them through them and actually gives them the opportunity to be a part of the process of not only nourishing people physically, but as we see, he trains them to nourish people spiritually.
And I think that’s a good setup to say, alright, we’re not called to force our kids to ministry, but giving them the skills, giving them the training, giving them the apologetics that you’re so effective at to say, alright, how can I be a part of God using me to help people be fed spiritually is so, so important. And I think for them to know that’s possible, they need to see their parents doing it.
Janel Greig (12:13):
Oh, I totally agree, Matt, and I think I love that you pull in the apologetics angle. I love that for a lot of reasons. But also I think, and we’re going to land in Paul and what he shared a little bit, but you think about in Acts when Paul Acts 17, when Paul is on Mars Hill and he’s going out and he is so moved, it’s not apathy. He’s moved by the culture and what’s going on there that he wants to share.
He made a case for God there. That’s that zeal. He cared. And that is caring about the image bearer. It’s not just, I want to say something to you and be right. I’m zealous for this because I’m right. It’s being zealous for sharing the gospel and serving others because we want them to find the Lord. And I think again, with our kids, we need to model that more.
(13:01):
Paul, last week we looked at, or last episode, we looked at Romans 12, nine, the exhortation to ab bore what is evil? And that’s another example of Paul just calling out, don’t be apathetic, be zealous. In Romans 12:2, when he says, he doesn’t say, ah, just sit in the world or sit in your faith. He says, be transformed. That’s active, that’s an active faith. We’re called to an active faith.
So again, we got to leave that apathy behind, even though like we talked about in our last episode too, that does ebb and flow, but that’s why it’s important to be surrounded by that community of believers and continually in God’s word for that encouragement. But having looked last week at Romans 12:9, let’s jump into 12:10 this week because I think that’s a great segue for that.
Dr. Matt Jones (13:49):
And it’s kind of funny, you pray about these episodes and you say, Lord, please lead and guide in light of or in spite of Janel and I. You can use this in light of or in spite of us. And as I realized, I got the podcast notes a little bit late today and it’s really cool that Romans 12:10 says, love one another with brotherly affection, outdo one another in showing honor.
And that obviously connects to what is being said right before in terms of letting love be genuine. But I look at loving one another with brotherly affection as a form of intentionality because I’m not the most affectionate person in the world. I do not like to be hugged. I do not like to be touched. Leave me alone. Now, there are some exceptions. I like my wife.
Janel Greig (14:42):
Oh, we’re in the same camp here. I’m not a hugger.
Dr. Matt Jones (14:43):
Okay, good. And so I’m like, Hey, a firm handshake is good with me. But yeah, it’s love one another with brotherly affection, outdo one another in honor. And I was looking into that this past week, and with this outdo one another with honor, I came across some thinking that it’s, Hey, listen, we’re going to celebrate one another. We’re going to celebrate accomplishments. We’re going to celebrate.
Last week I had a student in my office who was in tears because he had come to the realization that he has some friends at another university that weren’t coming to Christ. And it just broke him. And I was like, oh man, let’s celebrate that now. How can we help you reach out to them? Praise God that he’s working in your life in that way. Or when you’re out doing one another, you’re listening and praising another success.
(15:39):
And I can already pick up on that with you, Janel. You’re so good at listening and saying, alright, this is really good. Let’s capitalize on that. And I really appreciate that about you. And we’ve only known each other for about two months now, and it’s been pretty great. And then last one is, give credit to one another, outdo each other in giving credit. And if we were to say, alright, what is the honorable way to treat that person that we may be struggling with loving, that may be a way to address somebody that you personally may be struggling with or even sometimes struggling with your kid.
I make this joke every once in a while. People say, how many kids do you have? I’ll say three, two we like, it just depends on the day, because there are just some days where I lose sight of what a gift my kid is. And if I can step back and say, wait a minute, what would be a way to give them credit to outdo them with honor? That could be a really neat way to build that connection and possibly be used to shake them out of their apathy because they don’t think they’re doing anything worthwhile. I don’t know. What do you think, Janel?
Janel Greig (16:55):
I think that’s a great call, a call out. I think it’s kind of moving away from that self-centered focus to one another and celebrating, like you said, celebrating one another. I think we tend, we human beings, our sinful nature tends to default to criticizing or cynicism instead of that celebratory.
And so I even, like you shared about that student that came to you and you were celebrating, it’s a zeal, his zeal and his desire for his friends to know the Lord. And I think that’s something, the opportunity to call out those celebrations, I think is great. And that’s a vibrant faith. That’s a sharing of a vibrant faith that again, is the opposite of an apathetic faith. And I think that’s so important with our kids. Yeah, go ahead.
Dr. Matt Jones (17:48):
Well, I was just going to say, I really appreciate you’ve used several words that show up in verse 11 that go, do not be slothful and zeal, be fervent in spirit and serve the Lord. And I’ve heard you use zeal a couple times and got to go back to the context. I’m a big context person. Got to go back to the context of Romans, the big book. It’s saying, listen, because of the truth of the gospel, here’s how we get to live. And if we understand the beauty of the gospel and what Christ has redeemed us from, it’s going to produce zeal. It’s going to produce a desire to be fervent in the Lord. And as we’ve mentioned, pick up the mic.
Janel Greig (18:29):
Yep, yep. Yeah. And I think picking up the mic, and we alluded to this in the last episode, and I think this is going to be a common thread throughout this entire series, as well as just a common thread because it’s that Deuteronomy 6 call out for parents of talk with your kids when you’re walking, teach them the Lord’s ways.
But Barna, who we referenced some of the Barna studies last week in 2019, they did a study with the Lutheran Hour ministries and talked about how family dynamics influence spiritual formation and engagement. And they’ve highlighted the role of apathy in that faith loss against generations. And it was super interesting. They talked about spiritual vibrancy in households and they define that where faith is actively practiced through shared prayer, Bible reading and discussions.
And you mentioned that shared prayer, Bible reading are so important, but it’s also providing that safe place through that intentionality that you referenced, building relationships and actually having discussions about God. I think that is one of the most important things we can do as parents, is setting up that home to be a safe place for kids to have these discussions, for that faith transformation and that faith formation.
Dr. Matt Jones (19:50):
Yeah. What’s one way that you have found is effective in giving your kids the space and the comfort to have those spiritual conversations?
Janel Greig (20:04):
I think, and I don’t want to discourage anybody that hasn’t started it yet because I think it’s never too late, but it’s something in our house. I wanted to start from a young age, that there’s no conversation that’s off limits. There’s no need to be embarrassed. Mom and dad are safe places. Let’s talk about it. It doesn’t need to be in front of the whole family. It can be a one-child and one-parent. But the invitation to have those conversations and that we set that rhythm and that understanding from a very young age in our household.
And I will say sometimes that is best done in the context of a vehicle when the kiddos don’t have to look at you and it’s just you and one of the kids. It’s just talk. That’s a safe place. And they don’t have to make that eye contact, but it’s letting them know this is a safe place to ask anything. And I think that in our home too, it’s one of those, your faith is your own God is not a God that can’t handle questions, so ask.
Dr. Matt Jones (21:00):
And in the car they can’t escape. That works out well. Yeah, that works out really well. But yeah, it’s interesting you talked about the faith of the parents component, and I don’t want to be deterministic at all, but this is from a particular book. I forget the name of the book, but there’s a quote here in his fascinating book, Faith of the Fatherless. Social scientist Paul Vitz writes that in his study, the most influential atheists, including Nietzsche, Hume, Russell, Jean Paul Sartre, Albert Camus, I don’t know if I pronounced that one right, HG Wells all had one thing in common. It was defective relationships with their fathers.
(21:44):
Moreover, when Vitz studied the lives of influential theists such as Pascal, Burke, Mendelssohn, Kierkegaard, Chesterson, and Bonhoeffer, during those same historical periods, they found they enjoyed a strong, loving relationship with a father figure. And I just think that is so vital and that is so key that while mothers are important, men, we really need to step up. And I don’t want to be deterministic to say, if you’ve had a poor, a bad dad, or an non-existent dad, you can’t be a great dad. You may need to do some extra work to get some help.
But also dads, you all are so important, and I’m hoping more and more dads will listen to this podcast to hopefully get some encouragement that you can do it. Men, you may need some extra help. You not only listen to this podcast, but doing the reading, engaging in other male leaders. And you may need to pick up the mic by saying, I need help to be a better dad and have that humility because there’s been some times where I have had to ask for help. And that’s been humbling, but also an effective way of saying, kids, I love you dad’s far from perfect. I’m sorry, here’s where we’re moving forward.
Janel Greig (23:07):
Yeah, and I think you’re spot on with that, Matt. I think there is hope. There are a lot of broken families. We live in a broken world, but there is redemption. The Lord can provide that local church. I think this past weekend I had the opportunity to attend and I attended every year, and it’s such a blessing.
The Reality Conference that Stand to Reason puts on, and Summit has a great presence there. Summit does a great job marketing to the students there, the opportunity for those two week camps, Summit’s there, they do a breakout for the parents at lunch to try and engage and equip the parents, which is awesome. But to see a thousand, well, I’m really bad at numbers, so we won’t count, but probably a thousand, fifteen hundred students there. And in that setting, there are students struggling from apathy, situations of apathy to maybe broken homes with no parent, with no dad in the home to be that spiritual leader.
(24:02):
Maybe moms picking that up, or maybe they’re there with a friend. So there are a lot of great platforms, whether it’s the local church or opportunities to be intentional for our kids to help point them to the Lord and his truth. And I think it’s one of those we talked about at the beginning of this episode, an opportunity to pick up the mic. What could that be for you this week? Don’t defer, don’t delay, don’t disengage.
We want to encourage you guys as listeners to take one intentional step this week to combat apathy at home. Matt, what’s something that we’ve talked about that maybe reflect on it, maybe we haven’t talked about it yet, that you think would be a good opportunity for parents this week as that opportunity to pick up the mic or maybe even pass the mic to one of their kiddos?
Dr. Matt Jones (24:50):
Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think about one thing, because we both picked up on the thread of intentional relationships. Maybe there is a person that the Holy Spirit’s been saying, you need to have him over to the house. Or you need to take him out to eat, or you need to just go get coffee and bring your kid. I’ve been known to bring my kids to those conversations. Or ask your kid, Hey, is there someone that you care about that we could have over or we could take out to eat and just say, Hey, tell me your story.
Because that can lay a foundation for not only the intentional relationship, but demonstrating brotherly affection, genuine love and an opportunity to say, wow, I’m excited about the things that God is doing. Or have you thought about the things that God could be doing in your life? Because a lot of us don’t think in those terms because there are hurting people that really just want to be heard. And sometimes picking up the mic is saying, Hey, I want to hear your story as a foundation for a further relationship.
Janel Greig (25:59):
Yeah, I love that. Listeners, let’s have that be the pick up the mic challenge this week. And maybe you gleaned something else from the content today that you’re like, nah, I’m, I’m going to be zealous for that thing instead of this. But I love that Matt, and I love how that doesn’t just reflect that brotherly love with your kiddos, but it’s modeling that. It’s putting them in the situation and serving together.
So listeners, if today’s conversation inspired you to pick up the mic, to take action in your home, your kids’ school community, your community at church, subscribe and leave us a review so that more parents can join the movement. Matt, I’ve enjoyed the conversation again, today was great, and I just look forward to our next episode and continuing on in this content.
Parents, listeners, until next time, keep guiding your kids to live courageously in God’s upside down kingdom because every small act of faith you take as a parent pushes back against apathy and helps shape the next generation. Thanks for listening.