Parenting is an incredible adventure—but it can also feel confusing and overwhelming, especially when your teen drifts into apathy about faith. In this episode of the Upside-Down Parenting podcast from Summit Ministries, Matt and Janel unpack what apathy really is, why it shows up, and how parents can help their kids reawaken desire for God through meaningful, everyday practices.
We kick things off with stories from Matt and Janel’s lives—from student moments and family traditions, to the world of PSATs, college planning, and the subtle apathy teens sometimes bring to significant life transitions. These honest reflections help set the stage for today’s deep dive.
This episode offers rich insight for parents who want to cultivate deeper meaning, mission, and affection in their home. Apathy isn’t solved in one conversation—it’s shaped over time through rhythms that awaken the heart and steady the soul.
Have a question for our next Q&A episode? Email us at podcast@summit.org with “Upside-Down Parenting” in the subject line. Thanks for listening—and we’ll see you next time!
Episode 21: Summary & Transcript
Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.
Episode Summary
In this episode of the Upside Down Parenting podcast, Matt and Janel continue their discussion on overcoming spiritual apathy in teens, drawing from Rob and Amy Rienow’s book. They focus on countering two root causes: a lack of spiritual nourishment and a spirit of rebellion. The conversation covers practical strategies such as instituting “three spiritual meals” (personal, family, and corporate worship), the importance of parents modeling an active faith, and establishing spiritual rhythms from a young age. They share personal anecdotes and advice on addressing rebellion through early boundary-setting, open communication, parental humility, and helping a child find their God-given purpose.
Episode Transcript
Dr. Matt Jones (00:00):
Welcome to the Upside Down Parenting Podcast from Summit Ministries. Parenting is one of the greatest adventures ever. Yet we all know that parenting can feel overwhelming and confusing. The great news is you don’t have to do it alone. We are here to journey with you, Janel and I. Hi, Janel. You’re doing okay today?
Janel Greig (00:19):
Hey, Matt. Doing great today.
Dr. Matt Jones (00:21):
I’m glad. Well, we’re here to journey with you as you raise your kids to embrace God’s truth, his upside down kingdom and champion a biblical worldview. So Janel, we caught up a little bit on what’s going on in life. Any other new things going on in life for you?
Janel Greig (00:39):
Oh, always new things. Yeah, always new things. And this might point forward to a future episode, hopefully, but we are definitely in the season with the junior in the house and we’ve got the spread, but with the junior in the house getting ready, they took the PSAT.
Dr. Matt Jones (00:54):
Now wait a minute, what do you mean by, what do you mean by junior?
Janel Greig (00:57):
Oh, junior in high school. Junior in high school. Yeah, we’re starting to talk about college now. PSATs, they just took PSATs so the kids got their results back. They’re running all over the halls at school comparing who’s got what. And so we need to step into the conversation. What’s next? Is it going to be school right away? Is it going to be a gap year? Is it going to be an opportunity for something else?
And I would say, as we’re talking about apathy the last few episodes and closing that out, there’s a little bit of apathy from our kiddo in that area of, I don’t really know what’s next. So I’ll look forward to hearing from you some tips on that.
Dr. Matt Jones (01:36):
Well, I appreciate that. But I mean, college is great. In fact, I teach at a college, and I told a story recently about my affinity for Snickers and the next class period. Some of you guys can’t see this online, but the students got me a ton of Snickers bars. And so college is great, and I love teaching at college and working with students, and it’s just awesome. I’ve got two kids in college right now, and it’s cool.
And it actually ties in with the last verse on our last pick up the mic episode because it says in Romans 12:13, contribute to the needs of saints and seek to show hospitality. And my students picked up on, I need Snickers to make it through the day. And they obliged. It was awesome. I laughed so much.
(02:31):
And it actually said, hey, Jones needs some Snickers to keep his energy up, because you’ve seen some of those Snicker commercials where they actually have one person that’s grumpy and then they eat a Snickers and they become a totally different person. So I don’t think I’m grumpy. Well, actually, it does give me a little bit more energy, but it’s kind of cool in terms of a resolution or a thing to overcome.
Apathy is contributing to the needs of saints and to seek to show hospitality. So we’ll kind of close out with that today. But as we pick up where we left off with Rob and Amy’s book, Rob and Amy Rienow, there were two that we didn’t deal with, the lack of spiritual nourishment and a spirit of rebellion, but we want to address more how to overcome those.
So when you think about that, he talks about three spiritual meals, spiritual nourishment regarding personal time with God, family worship and family, corporate worship. And I was just curious, what were your opinions on that portion of providing or ideas for providing spiritual nourishment to overcome the apathy?
Janel Greig (03:47):
Yeah, I loved the analogy of the three spiritual meals with the, I think he referred to spiritual vitamins as the boost of Sunday school, Christian school, youth group, church retreats, that those are great to add in, but they shouldn’t be the core. The core should be the three spiritual meals. And I think the spiritual meals, he talked about that you just referenced, the personal prayer and scripture as a family, family worship at home, and then worship at church. Those definitely are important in establishing the rhythms from a young age too, with the kiddos that helps to combat apathy.
Dr. Matt Jones (04:28):
Yeah, and I remember, we’ll talk about family worship here. We really did address the personal time with God, at least in terms of you and I modeling it. But the family corporate worship is a big one for me. And I just always felt it was my responsibility to be the one that got the family up, help the family get ready and help lead the family out the door as the dad. And we actually really did believe that, and Rob and Amy talk about this, we go to church together and we worship in the service together.
And that’s been really important for us, especially in light of what Paul writes in Ephesians chapter six. I don’t know if you are aware of this to the degree, but whenever they would get together in churches in the first century, it would be everybody there. And I always thought it was interesting that Paul specifically addresses the children and he says, children obey your parents, assuming the children are there in the worship service with them.
(05:33):
And we just kind of said, you know what? We’re going to do family corporate worship together, and we’re going to ask the kids after church, all right, what did the pastor talk about? And that’s usually on the drive home. And it was so funny because some folks said, well, you don’t have to have the little children in there. We were in church three weeks ago, and we were sitting behind this family of five, and they have about, she was about five or six years old.
And the pastor, I forget what question he asked, but the pastor from the pulpit goes something to the effect of, is it okay to steal? And the little girl said no, which means that little 6-year-old is engaged and listening and to some degree can track. And I think sometimes we’ve lost sight of family worship is good and kids can actually be involved. And we used to have some really good conversations on the way home about some of those sermons. So do you guys have any experiences like that, Janel?
Janel Greig (06:33):
Yeah, I love the multi-generational setting of churches and I’ve definitely, we’ve experienced the dichotomy of the different settings. I think when our kids were younger, definitely there were seasons where it was, oh, I’m going to take them out of the service. Or you know what? We’re trying the nursery today just because of the age. Sometimes as a parent, when your kids, when you’re in that season, even sometimes when you’re in the season of older, you need a little bit of just, being able to focus and be present with God. And so sometimes those nursery opportunities are a blessing if your church provides that.
But I do, I love worshiping in church with our family. And I think one of the things in our household that we tried to do with our kids at a young age was oftentimes referred to not just worship time as that worship and praise time at church when we’re singing because worship should be, we’re called for it to be a posture of how we’re living with the Lord. We worship the Lord in all that we do and in many different ways. And so as we’re referring to, and Rob does in his book and how you refer to that time together, worshiping the Lord as a family, it doesn’t just mean when we’re singing worship is a posture of life for the Lord.
Dr. Matt Jones (07:58):
Yeah. Well, and I really appreciate you bringing in you guys’ family worship in the home there because estimates are that only about 15% of parents today grew up in homes that had a regular time of family prayer, Bible reading. And as a result, only 5% of churchgoing families today have a regular time of worship together. And so hopefully we’re encouraging. I remember we talked about this with habits and practices earlier in the beginning of the Upside Down Parenting Podcast, not just ours, but one that my wife and I were on.
And hopefully we can encourage continuing or building a legacy where we can re-institute living out, hey, family worship is extremely important. And one thing that stood out to me about Rob’s book was because some parents struggle with, well, I didn’t have a great example. I didn’t see this modeled. Rob, if you read his book, grew up in a home with an atheist dad, and look what he’s doing now. I mean, he’s giving not only advice, but also sounds like he’s doing a great job as a dad. It does in his book. And he also acknowledges he’s struggled with some things.
But I just say this is where you rejoice and hope. Listen, even though you didn’t grow up in a great family, doesn’t mean you can’t lead and work with your spouse to become a great family that takes these three levels of nourishment seriously.
Janel Greig (09:29):
Absolutely. I think that’s as parents too, and I don’t know what you and Kat experienced when your kids were younger, but I think it’s kind of like Bible knowledge. The more you learn about the Lord, the more you realize you don’t know. And I think that parenting journey has been similar, that I think there was a time when maybe we brought our first kiddo home. We thought, okay, we’ve read the books, we’re ready for this. And then it’s, you realize, I don’t know what I’m doing, Lord, show me.
But each season is different too. I think as our kids grow, following them and seeing who the Lord is creating them to be, what their needs are in each season is so important. And that is another point back to apathy. If you’re experiencing apathy in our kids or it seems like that’s coming, what can we do at different stages to meet them where they’re at and help pour into that?
Dr. Matt Jones (10:24):
Well, and I was wondering with that, he does encourage encouraging your kid to spend time with God, to have a personal time with God. I was curious, your opinion, do you make your kids, do you make your kids spend time with God? Or how did you guys handle that in your family’s development and at what ages?
Janel Greig (10:42):
Yeah, great. Great question, Matt. I think, and all of our kids are similar in that because we established rhythms and we did establish rhythms early on that when our kids were ages where they weren’t able to read yet. And my husband travels for work, so he traveled a lot then. But when he was home, he would partake with us. But otherwise, part of that bedroom routine was we’re reading God’s word together, we’re reading Bible storybooks.
And then when our kids were old enough to read on their own, that was part of their routine. At night is God’s word, and each one of the three, still is reading God’s word through before they read their other books during their bedtime routine. And that it’s pretty cool to see. Growing up, I hadn’t read the Bible through by the time I even graduated from high school.
(11:34):
Our kids have all read it through a couple times, and that’s not a guarantee, there’s not a guarantee there, but I know they know God’s word each time as they’re reading it through, we might supplement, say, hey, here’s a supplemental thing to read with it so that you have a handbook to be digging a little bit deeper.
So it was part of the, there definitely was pushback at some times in each of their, I would say, different stages. I don’t want to read the Bible. Can I just skip to my other books and well, this is why we do that, that we didn’t have any because it was a normal rhythm. Any pushback to the degree that it caused tantrums or anything like that. What about you, Matt? What did you and Cat do or what have you done? And maybe it’s changed too over time.
Dr. Matt Jones (12:18):
Yeah, we had a very similar nighttime routine before bed. We had this children’s story bible, and so while they could not read, we would definitely read them that at night. And we opened up time for questions. And actually it was really fruitful with my oldest because she saw it as an opportunity not to go to bed. Who’s going to tell you to stop reading the Bible?
My parents really stopped telling me to stop reading the Bible and asking questions about the Bible. And so she took full advantage of that, and I was okay with that in most cases. But we also, you talk about rhythms, we did have what was called quiet time each day, and it was depending on the age of the kid. Well, they had quiet time from the age of one up until about 16, where you had time by yourself.
(13:17):
And we did not make them read the Bible. We gave them options, we gave them tools. We did more family devotions. And by the grace of God, all three of them in these later phases of life, spend time in God’s word on their own. My youngest is trying to make it through the Bible this year, throughout the year, she’s almost done awesome. I’ve been overwhelmed by that. So we have given the space and time and modeled and really did more to let them choose their own route.
And we gave him different versions of the Bible, and we gave Tyler, Tyler did not like to read, and we gave him a comic book Bible, the Tommy Nelson comic book Bible, and it was very effective, and he would actually bring questions to me about that. And so we’ve tried several things, made it an opportunity. But the other thing that we did do, Sundays were sacred and are, we didn’t allow any homework to be done on Sundays unless there’s an exception. We said, we will only be listening to God honoring music on Sunday. And we put some limits on that.
We had a little bit more freedom and said, hey, how do you say this? Okay, this is what you’re listening to. Why? What’s it speaking? And to hopefully help them think about what they believe and why. But Sunday was set aside as, hey, this is a day where we are engaging as much in church family worship.
(14:55):
And not things necessarily of the world. So we can talk about that more at another point. But that kind of sets up this other piece where, hey, all right, even though we’re feeding, even though we’re making this available, there can become a spirit of rebellion, whether active or passive. And I’m just curious how you’ve handled that, and maybe you haven’t had a ton of active rebellion, but maybe passive, what’s been helpful for you to overcome that as a parent?
Janel Greig (15:30):
Yeah, I would say it’s that open communication in our household, and we haven’t had anything, when you speak of rebellion, it makes me actually think of our oldest, when she was little, she had a couple very serious tantrums in the rebellion of not wanting to do what mom and dad were asking her to. And those were moments, my husband and I were just talking about that the other day and how her personality now we see sometimes, and she’s our driver, she’s our one that’s driving. So this is kind of where I’m seeing this.
There’s a little bit of stubbornness there, definitely displays itself as a character trait, but it’s muted to what it was when she was little. And I think that’s because of how we approached, no, this is actually what God has for you, step into this. Or putting boundaries just as God puts boundaries on us for what is good and what his design is. And when we stay within those boundaries, things go better. And so we did that with her.
And I would say as we were reflecting the other day, we were thankful for the foresight from the Lord to do that and instill that. But we haven’t, I would say we’re very blessed that we haven’t experienced any direct rebellion. It’s all been dealt with through conversation and some of those limits set at earlier ages. Did you and Cat experience that with any of your three, that you have a thought or a tip?
Dr. Matt Jones (16:56):
Yeah. Well, we did have a significant area of rebellion with each child at some phase of their lives. And again, giving them the opportunity to go and discuss with someone else was important. But also you spoke about your kids when they were younger. And I see this a lot, and I think it has to do with gentle parenting, and I really cringe at that language because that loses sight that these children have a sin nature.
And our kids learned very quickly that if they threw a fit, there was no way they were getting one they wanted. And so having an active rebellious heart was not really effective. And we would, in most cases, do either the exact opposite or deal with it in various ways. And I think that curbs an older interaction with your kids to know, you know what? My parents aren’t going to fall prey to my rebellious spirit.
(18:06):
If there is that establishment early on, that if I’m being rebellious and I throw a fit enough that I’ll get my way. And so as a result, like I said, we’ve had one issue, major issue with each one, but it was more an act of not necessarily rebellion, but it was more an act of this secret sin that if not addressed, would lead to continued rebellion. And so, I mean, we had some minor things, but I just found that as I interact with more and more parents, if you establish early on that your kid’s not going to get their way if they throw a fit, that curbs this reliance on that form of activity, that form of rebelliousness.
(18:57):
To not have to deal with that much later. So that’s my observation with that. And older, even if they get older, and that’s what they’ve started relying on, I hope as we talked about in the last episode, we will have the humility to say, hey, Bob, Tim, Karen, whatever. I was wrong in not holding the standard of a biblical worldview for you when you were younger. And I fell prey to being more concerned about being a pal than a parent. And I’m realizing the error of my ways, please forgive me. How do we address this particular area of tension or conflict between us?
And that to me goes back to that rebellion. And I’m taking some responsibility in that even though you’re responsible for your sin, I’m taking some responsibility for not parenting as I should. And that has been effective with our kids at times to say, hey, I was wrong. I should have done this better. How do we move forward?
Janel Greig (20:02):
Yeah. One of the points on that spirit of rebellion, I think that you are talking about even within regards to discipline, is that balance of grace and truth with our kids and what is actually loving. And again, that’s going to point back to having that rhythm set of entering into those conversations of, hey, I’m concerned about you, or, hey, mom messed up and I need to apologize for that, and I need to be straightforward with you about it. And that transparency and posture of humility. Go ahead.
Dr. Matt Jones (20:34):
Oh, I was going to say, and I think sometimes to regain that trust, regain that is to start doing things together again. Because sometimes when my kids are rebellious, they don’t always want to do stuff with us. And so that’s where we find, all right, what are some areas of common ground for us to rebuild that relationship?
And one of the things that we did when our kids were a little bit older is we actually did the five love languages test to find out what your love languages were. And I actually have them written down in my office whenever I’m feeling tension with my kid, and I’ll say, okay, maybe it’s because I haven’t, or maybe it’s because I should spend more time with him sometimes that time is doing something for others, which I think is important.
In light of the Romans passage in Romans 12:13, contribute to the needs of the saints and to seek hospitality, seek to show hospitality and hospitality during that time as the first century was specifically being generous, showing protection, showing love and welcoming strangers and those who are in the body of Christ, welcoming those into the love of God as God has welcomed you into that love.
(21:51):
And I was just wondering, what are some things that you have seen or pursued to help rebuild that relationship, whether in ministry, whether in sports whatnot, to help overcome that spirit of rebellion?
Janel Greig (22:05):
Yeah, I think overcoming that spirit of rebellion is something that is bringing that focus back to, what’s our purpose? What is the purpose? What is your mission? And I think Uche Anizor wrote a book called Overcoming Apathy. And in it I love that he uses the comparison of etiology. So when etiology is the study of a disease, so looking at what is the cause of this disease, he references it as the backstory. Each of us as a person, as an image bearer has a backstory.
And so each disease has a backstory. And so you want to know what the backstory is, what the cause is so that you can treat it effectively. And I think that spirit of rebellion is one of the backstories, one of the causes of apathy. And so it’s important to be able to identify, okay, if my kiddo at whatever age is experiencing this or exhibiting rebellion, how do I treat it?
(23:06):
Because I know that it’s rebellion, and I think that mission having a purpose, what is our purpose in this world? What has God created us for? Kind of removes that. It removes the pride if we allow it to right the focus on the Lord and, what does the Lord call us to?
Kathy Koch in her five purposes, she talks about what helps a kid thrive and that they need five things in order to thrive. And one of those is they need to know their purpose. And so isn’t it awesome that if a child knows what their purpose is, that they’re an image bearer and did God create you, it can help bring a fullness to them serving them, living out their mission and reject the problem of apathy and rebellion, which is a symptom of that.
Dr. Matt Jones (23:58):
That’s excellent. And I appreciate you bringing in Kathy Koch because she’s just having your kids know their purpose is an extremely important part of you as a parent, helping them realize that as they pray that through, because we’ve talked about this before, but my wife and I, we have a family purpose and we have core values that we try to live out.
And one of them in light of this Roman passage is we want to create an atmosphere of love. And listen, whenever you’re in a rebellious state, whenever we’re at odds, not only are you not experiencing love, you’re not able to share it and show it. And that’s been extremely helpful. And of course, it’s so important to still love your kid the best you can. I’m so glad you brought up grace and truth with grace and truth. Whenever they’re facing this particular spirit of rebellion or the lack of spiritual nourishment or their hearts not being engaged, or our hearts are not being engaged.
Janel Greig (25:02):
Yes.
Dr. Matt Jones (25:02):
And so I do recommend us reading Five Reasons for Spiritual Apathy in Teens by Rob and Amy Rienow, and I really appreciate your insights and thoughts on this, Janel.
Janel Greig (25:17):
Yeah, there’s so much packed in that little book, so listeners, we definitely recommend picking that up. As we’ve talked about today, dealing with spiritual apathy obviously isn’t just a single conversation, a one-time fix. It’s about the habitual practices that can cultivate meaning, mission, affection in the life of your teen.
As parents, you have an irreplaceable role. Engage your heart fully. Pay attention to what’s really going on in your teen’s life, and look for ways to connect and care deeply. Provide that consistent spiritual nourishment through personal time with God, family, devotions and worship together. Don’t underestimate the power of modeling active faith. Let your teens see you pray, read scripture and talk about God in everyday life. Live it out.
If you have questions for us, we would love to hear them and answer them in an upcoming Q and A episode. You can reach us at podcast@summit.org. In the subject line, just include upside down parenting so that we know you’re submitting a question for the show.
Matt, thank you so much for your time. As usual, just pure joy and listeners, thanks for tuning in. We’ll see you next time.