The Dr. Jeff Show Ep. 55 – Sean McDowell

Episode 55: Summary & Transcript

Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Dr. Jeff Show, host Dr. Jeff interviews Dr. Sean McDowell, a speaker at Summit Ministries and professor of Christian Apologetics at Biola University. The main discussion centers on understanding and reaching Generation Z, focusing on two central questions every young adult is asking: “Do you love me?” and “Will you show me?”. McDowell explains that this generation faces unprecedented anxiety and depression levels, with nearly 75% feeling they have no sense of purpose in life. He attributes this to a culture that subtly messages young people must earn love through performance, achievements, and social media metrics.

He then emphasizes the importance of helping young people understand that meaning comes from relationships with God and others rather than looking inward for truth. The discussion also covers practical strategies for grandparents and parents to connect with young people by building relationships first, asking questions about their friends’ perspectives rather than directly challenging their views, and using natural opportunities like movies and music to engage in meaningful conversations.

Episode Transcript

Ryan Dobson (00:00):
Hey everyone. Ryan Dobson here for the Dr. Jeff Show. I’ve got great news for you. Summit summer programs are back in person this summer. That’s right. You can send your kid to learn about Christian worldview in Colorado Springs and in Georgia. It’s amazing. It’s transformative. It totally changed my life when I was a teen and my parents sent me. I was so thrilled with that program, I’ve been back every year for 35 years.

If you sign your child up online at summit.org for a summer program, you can get $200 off before March 31st and a special deal for listeners of the Dr. Jeff Show. If you use the code, Dr. Jeff 22, you get another hundred dollars off an in-person conference, sign up at summit.org for $300 off before March 31st by using the code, Dr. Jeff 22. It totally changed my life. I can’t wait to see what it does for your child’s life too. God bless and welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show.

Dr. Jeff Myers (01:05):
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show. It’s available on Apple, Google, Spotify, Edifi, Liftable. Wherever you get your podcast, please review it and share it with your friends. This is the show where I interview major thought leaders from many fields of influence to show how our worldview changes everything.

My guest today is a speaker at Summit Ministries and a professor of Christian Apologetics at Biola University. His podcast Think Biblically helps form our minds to lead a Christ-centered life. Sean McDowell and I have been friends for a long time and we’re going to have a great conversation. Welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show. Dr. Sean McDowell, welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show.

Dr. Sean McDowell (01:44):
Dr. Jeff, man, this is a treat.

Dr. Jeff Myers (01:47):
It’s a lot of fun to have this interview. I’ve been looking forward to this for a long time because you are one of the favorite speakers at Summit Ministries with our students and you are a Summit Ministries graduate yourself. So every time I have a chance to talk to people, oh, here’s some of the graduates who’ve been through Summit. Dr. Sean McDowell is a name who always comes up.

Dr. Sean McDowell (02:08):
Well, what’s funny, when we hosted Summit in California, I was always like, can I get higher rankings than Dr. Jeff? Is it possible? Because everybody loves him. And to my credit, I think maybe one time I got you and I was like, yes.

Dr. Jeff Myers (02:26):
It is fun. I’m so excited about being back this summer with our students in person in Manitou Springs and then also in Lookout Mountain, Georgia, which is going to be great. And yeah, I’m just looking forward to catching up a little bit.

Dr. Sean McDowell (02:41):
Can’t wait. It’s been too long brother.

Dr. Jeff Myers (02:42):
We’ve got a lot of things we want to talk about here, but I think if I could just finish this show with people knowing this one thing, this is where I would go with it. And that is we understand where this rising generation is a little bit better and we know some strategies to move them toward the truth. And you and J. Warner Wallace, who’s also one of our summit favorite speakers, although his speaker rankings are not as high as yours, we don’t have to edit that out, just deal with you later. But students love him and they love you. And you teamed up to put this book together called That The Next Generation May Know, which I think comes from Psalm 78.

Dr. Sean McDowell (03:26):
That’s right.

Dr. Jeff Myers (03:28):
Which is this great national hymn of the children of Israel that basically recites all of the times that they moved into battle and then fled in fear rather than moving toward God’s purposes. And so I want to just dig into this a little bit.

There are two questions that you say are central, two that every young adult is asking, and I think we need to dig into this just based on our cultural moment. But the first one is, “Do you love me?” And the second one is, “Will you show me?” Those are the two things. Why those two questions, what’s going on with Gen Z that those are the two things that are really the heart of what they are asking.

Dr. Sean McDowell (04:13):
What’s so interesting about doing research on a book is that I read every book and I found every study and article I could find on Gen Z, and I have two Gen Zs in my family. My daughter even did Summit the summer before last. And what’s amazing is the research comes back and sometimes you find these timely truths that are relevant to a generation that may not be relevant to other generations.

And then all the research comes back and you’re like, you know what? Jesus got it right and the scriptures got it right. This is a timeless truth and the question, “Will you love me?” is timeless. You and I asked that question. I think at the heart of every ethical issue, I had a conversation with a kid who was struggling with his sexuality. As I probed deeper, I realized his question was, “If I come out, will my parents love me?”

(05:07):
Will you love me? And what’s hard for this generation is they’re given the message subtly, not even subtly sometimes that you have to earn that love. You have to look a certain way, you have to have a number of likes and followers. You have to accomplish this. And that betrayed the heart of the gospel.

And the message I tell my kids, I say, I don’t love you because of what you do or you don’t do. I love you because you’re my son or I love you because you’re my daughter. And that is true for how God speaks with us. At the heart of this book is trying to equip parents and teachers and other leaders to help young people answer the question that their hearts are really seeking in a biblical fashion.

Dr. Jeff Myers (05:54):
Talk about this in relation to the anxiety that people feel today because you’ve seen these studies as well. We have the highest levels of anxiety among young adults that we’ve ever had, highest levels of young adults being diagnosed as depressive that we’ve ever had.

And at the same time as George Barna’s study recently showed almost 75% of young adults say they feel they have no sense of purpose in life. How does that relate to the performance mentality that you’re saying is at the heart of the world system as opposed to the gospel?

Dr. Sean McDowell (06:30):
Well, one of the things Jim and I do in this book is we talk about how God has made us for relationships to be in relationship with him, relationship with other people. John 17, Jesus says, this is eternal life that you may know the one true God, greatest commandment, love God and love other people.

But what happens in, like you said, our anxious culture today is when young people don’t find their meaning and significance and that relational void in God and in community and in relationship with other people, they’re going to fill it with something else. And some of this anxiety comes from there’s nonstop messages coming to this generation, buy this product, look this way, join this platform, vote this way. It just gets this sense of, kids have no grounding.

Time Magazine did a cover story on Gen Z and I think it was back in 2016, so these would now be older Gen Zers, and they interviewed a teenager by the name of Faith Ann, and she said, we have this constant pressure to speak up on climate change, racism, to get our schoolwork done. It’s all these voices coming in. And she gave this metaphor. She said, we’re all like little volcanoes ready to explode.

(07:50):
And that just hit me, that you have the most medicated generation in history who’s anxious, and so many of them are looking for these counterfeits and these substitutes to find meaning and purpose rather than what the gospel says. And the Bible says it’s found in relationship with people and in relationship with God.

Dr. Jeff Myers (08:11):
There are so many things there, but one of the things that we notice at Summit is how many of the students are coming in now? It’s a majority now saying that when they are asked to find truth, they say, truth is up to me. Truth is individual. Truth is what is socially constructed. It’s not the reality that is out there for me to find. And I wonder if maybe that lack of grounding in anything permanent is just like faith. Ann said, it’s just a volcano. We need to explode.

Dr. Sean McDowell (08:44):
Yeah, I think that’s right. That’s such a good way of putting it because we’re seeking for stability, we’re seeking for meaning. We’re seeking to be loved, and our culture, like you said, says, be true to yourself, be your authentic self. You live your truth. But God hasn’t made us to look within, to our subjective feelings and experience for meaning. He’s wired us to look without.

I was just teaching a group about high school students yesterday at Christian school, and I was saying, why is creation important? If God is a creator, that means truth is built into the world itself and we don’t create it. We discover it. Just like I discover a purpose for my smartphone, the truth and the meaning is built in by the maker, meaning in the world around us about relationships, about work, about sexuality. It’s something we discover. It’s not something we create.

So this generation has this yearning for meaning, instability and love, but they’re being told this lie to look within and it just leaves you empty and lonely and even more anxious than reaching out to a truth outside of yourself.

Dr. Jeff Myers (09:54):
Yeah, Sean, one of the things young adults have said to me, in fact, I got confronted on this at a speaking engagement recently. A guy just walked right up to me. I thought he was going to run straight into me and he said, this is the problem. You’re the problem. He was a little upset, but what he was essentially saying to me is, I recognize the truth is not up to me, but what that means is I need to find a tribe and how do I know that the tribe I’m choosing is the right one?

He just said, well, if I choose to believe what you’re saying about Christianity, then I’m going to join the Christian tribe as opposed to the LGBTQ tribe as opposed to the CRT tribe. Does that make any sense? He just said, well, why would I choose your tribe? In other words, he wasn’t even seeing the connection to ultimate truth. He was saying, well, this is just your perspective on ultimate truth. How do you handle that with these students all of the time?

Dr. Sean McDowell (10:59):
Yeah. The first thing is I think we got to pause and realize that what you described Jeff is a very postmodern way of thinking that many of our young people have. That’s an insightful story that I think the data backs up. How I would approach this young man is I would just try to reframe the way he’s even approaching the question rather than saying, well join Christianity because of A, B, and C.

I want to ask questions like, okay, if there’s a truth outside of yourself, is there religious truth? Can we know that there is religious truth? Do you think all these different worldviews and stories can be true or can there be one true story because this young man, like many is just saying, I just need to pick a tribe to give myself community, give myself comfort, give myself meaning I want to be a part of something.

(11:50):
And yet he probably hasn’t realized that wait a minute, you can be a part of a false story. Don’t you want something that gives your life meaning that is also true? So I would just probably ask a lot of questions to this young man, and this is why one of the talks I give regularly, I know you address this at Summit, it’s just a question of truth. Is there truth? Can we know truth? How do we discover truth? Is there moral truth? Is there religious truth that helps reframe the way this young man is thinking? And then he can entertain questions like, is Jesus God? Is the Bible true?

But that preliminary work, and by the way, Jeff, when my dad wrote Evidence that Demands a Verdict in 1972, there were no chapters on truth. People assumed there’s such a thing as truth, and we could know it in the updated version, if I remember. I think we have three full chapters. There’s so much confusion about truth. That’s one way culture has radically shifted over the past three, four decades.

Dr. Jeff Myers (12:51):
Sean, when you’re on a college campus and a student says, I don’t really think there is such a thing as truth. Can you walk us through that conversation a little bit? Because I know a lot of people who are watching and listening haven’t had the privilege to be at a Summit Ministries session to hear how we process that.

Dr. Sean McDowell (13:09):
What I’m going to do, Jeff, is I’m going to ask a lot of questions. So if a young person says, I don’t think there’s such a thing as truth, I’m going to say, tell me what you mean by truth and then why not? And then based on how they respond, I’m going to ask more questions. So my first goal is to just understand what this young person even means by truth. Chances are they can’t really define it and grasp what it is, and I’ll understand why they hold that view.

And then ultimately in the back of my mind, what I’m trying to do is I try to get them to realize that they say they don’t think they can know truth, but really they believe it in their heart and they base their lives on what they think is truth. They certainly think there’s mathematical truth, almost certainly think there’s basic historical truth.

(13:59):
And today we don’t live in a relativistic, live and let live culture. There are certain things like racism and pedophilia. Everybody or almost everybody is quick to condemn. Hence, we have cancel culture. So bottom line, get clarity. What do you mean by truth? Why do you think we can’t know it?

And then I want to find a way to just show to this person who’s made in the image of God to know truth, that they actually live their life as if they’re such a thing as truth. And if there’s one thing they think is true, maybe they’d be open to the idea that Christianity could be true.

Dr. Jeff Myers (14:36):
Yeah, that’s good. I love how gospel centered that is too. We always talk about the teachings of Jesus, but Jesus asked 288 questions. This is why at Summit we are focused on the questions of Jesus. How do we ask questions? Because by asking the question, you’re saying, I see you as a person. I value you as a person. My interest is not telling you what to think. My interest is walking alongside you in discovering truth. So I just love that. That’s great.

Now, when you wrote the book with Jim Wallace, the book about, So the Next Generation May Know, you guys spent some time talking about not just getting people, young adults to acknowledge the truth, but how do you help them develop a passion for the truth? And I thought that was fascinating and it’s a big distinction. Sure. It’s easy for people to say, sure, yeah, there’s a God, okay, whatever doesn’t affect my life really. What’s the step across the line to a real passion for truth as you’re working with young adults, how do you help them?

Dr. Sean McDowell (15:45):
I think there’s two basic ways. One is to reveal and help them see that they actually do care about truth. So Jeff, I think about it like a beach ball. You push a beach ball underwater and it pops up because of the nature of gravity and the beach ball, et cetera. But it takes certain strength and force to keep it down. Worldviews that say truth is not important, kind of do that thing.

And I want to reveal to a student, hey, you’re pushing the beach ball down. You actually care about truth. If I broke a promise with you, you would care deeply about it, wouldn’t you? I want to show a young person that they already care about truth and then redirect it to the big questions. That’s kind of step number one because everybody, every moment of their life lives based on what they think is true.

(16:33):
Hey, what time is this interview with Dr. Jeff? What’s the right connection with him? Is this audio and is it video? How long are we going moment by moment? We’re living that way. So I just want to reveal to a student and say, actually, you already live in your life as if truth matters. And so it’s kind of a self revelation.

The other way is to just show the consequences that truth has. So I’ll use simple examples like a distant cousin of mine, my uncle told me this story a few summers ago that he was deaf and he’d go walking on this train track in Massachusetts where they lived every single day because the train came at the same time.

So I went walking one morning, had no thought that they would change the time that the train came, couldn’t hear the warning, it couldn’t stop in time, and my cousin was actually killed because he had false information.

(17:24):
I think a way to get a passion for truth is to help students realize, wow, faulty ideas about a relationship, devastates a relationship. Faulty ideas about money investing devastates your finances, about health can devastate your life. And then I guess if I was going to add a third way when it comes to the truth of Christianity, this is where we have to get out of our comfort zones and actually take our kids out into the world to engage the ideas of the world.

So we take students on college campuses, get into spiritual conversations with people who see the world differently very quickly. You’re like, wow, this person’s Buddhist. I got to learn something about Buddhism. We bring in an atheist to talk with our students. These kinds of interactions, when a student is taken out of the classroom out into living their faith can start to create a passion and an interest in truth.

Dr. Jeff Myers (18:17):
Sean, the audience for the Dr. Jeff Show as grandparents, parents, young summit graduates who are in their twenties. So I’m always trying to think of what would a grandparent say to a grandchild or how could a parent talk with a child? And then how do you talk to a coworker or friend and so forth. So I guess the next question is really huge, but help us with grandparents and then with parents and then with young adults who were coworkers, maybe boyfriend, girlfriend, how do you connect love and truth? This is a huge theme of the book.

In fact, Sean, the first time I think we were sharing a platform together, which was a long time ago, and I’m not going to say exactly how long it was, but I took notes on your presentation because you really shared this connection. I thought it was beautiful. So just talk with those groups, grandparents, parents, and then with coworkers, friends, boyfriend, girlfriend, how do you connect love and truth together?

Dr. Sean McDowell (19:22):
Jeff, this is one of the toughest yet I think most important questions we can ask today because if we just have truth without love, we become legalistic and we’re not caring for people. If we have love without truth, what happens? We lose the truth that sets people free and we aren’t living out what Jesus said, which is grace and truth speak the truth in love.

The bottom line is I think we can come up with strategies on how to do this, but I actually think more than anything else, it’s a heart issue. Because right now there’s some issues on questions about race, questions about immigration, questions about LGBTQ, these really sensitive topics where people ask these questions. How do I do this scenario? Inside I’m thinking, gosh, I don’t have a simple answer for you.

(20:18):
This is complex, but here’s what I know. You can’t compromise truth, but you have to do it in a spirit of love. Now that could result in the person listening and building the relationship. Sometimes that could result in the person being offended and walking away, Jesus let the rich young ruler walk away. So all I can say really is that is the tension that we need to live in, and I think we err on one side or the other, but I’ve also found even some Christians will sometimes live in that ground a little bit differently, and we have to have grace for people as long as they’re trying to be loving and being faithful to what is scriptural.

Dr. Jeff Myers (21:05):
So I’m thinking of, I recently talked to a grandparent, said, I’m trying to figure out how to help my grandchildren work through all of these issues, and they don’t even want to talk to me about it because they think that I’m so racist, homophobic, xenophobic, whatever. How do I even remake that connection? That’s tough stuff.

Dr. Sean McDowell (21:35):
That is tough stuff. I would say a couple things to encourage you. A recent study called Handing Down the Faith by Christian Smith, a sociologist, I know you know him, Dr. Jeff.

Dr. Jeff Myers (21:43):
Yeah.

Dr. Sean McDowell (21:44):
And Verne Bankston, a book in 2013 called Families in Faith. One of the largest studies of faith formation and passing on I’m aware of. It was 35 years, 3,500 people, four generations, both of them talk about the influence of grandparents on passing on the faith to the next generation, and there’s reasons for this I won’t go into, but you can have an effect even if you don’t see it and you don’t realize it, studies consistently back that up. I see the influence of grandparents on my own kids and I’m deeply grateful for that.

I would say start in this case with the relationship, spend time with your grandson or your granddaughter. Go to the events, prioritize that relationship and just look for natural opportunities to engage him on spiritual things. That could be writing a letter, a physical letter at some point and mailing it to ’em, but I would say with your grandkids, take a longer term perspective. Lean in with the relationship so your grandkids know you love them no matter what.

Pray for them and just look for strategic opportunities to speak spiritually into their life. Those opportunities will be there if you’re attentive and involved in their lives. Trust me, I see my kids have heartbreak at sports. My grandparents have my parents, their grandparents have a natural opportunity to use that, to minister to them, to pray for them to care for them. That’s because they’re a part of their daily lives and just love on my kids.

Dr. Jeff Myers (23:21):
Yeah, it’s so good. I was thinking through this as a dad as well. I have had so many times where initially I started out, okay, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? What’s your view of, I was kind of approaching it with a debate mindset because that’s how I learn. That’s what I hope people do with me, and they didn’t feel safe to have those conversations with me.

And I learned kind of a parenting hack, which was to ask, Hey, about this topic. I was reading about this in the news, does this ever come up at school? And what do your friends say about it? They can actually move into their world a little bit by asking the question, hey, what do your friends say about this?

(24:12):
How are your friends feeling about COVID lockdowns? How are they? I hear about anxiety being very high. Are you seeing that with your friends? Somehow that opens up the conversation in a way that a direct question, at least for me in my situation, wouldn’t.

Dr. Sean McDowell (24:32):
Gosh, my son’s a senior in high school. I wish I had heard that advice years ago. That is one of the best practical pieces of advice, Jeff, that is so good because what are you doing? You’re trying to think. We tend to coach and parent and relate to people the way we want people to relate to us. You’re saying, what’s going to work for my kids and how they understand and relate to me?

And I found when a kid comes walking in the door, hey, how was your day? They might be tired. That might not be the best time. But my son, we have a jacuzzi. At night, if we go in the jacuzzi, even if I’m tired, he’s like, hey dad, let’s go to the jacuzzi. My knees hurt. I will almost always do it because that setting fosters conversation.

Last night with my daughter, she was in her room doing homework. I’m like, you know what? I want to watch the TV show. I’m just going to go sit down and just ask her questions. How’s volleyball going? Hey, how are things going with your friends? And in that setting and that time it worked and just unlocked a conversation. So the right time and the right question, which you said about how your friends are making sense of this is gold.

Dr. Jeff Myers (25:42):
We do a similar thing with music, movies, so forth. At Summit we have, every week we have this newsletter called Reflect, which is applying a biblical worldview to something, a current song or a current movie, and it’s free for anybody who wants to subscribe, just go to summit.org.

But at one point, one of my kids was moving into some music that I thought, man, I don’t know. I’m not sure about this, but how do I intervene? I certainly didn’t want my parents telling me what records to listen to. They were records back when I was in school. So I just asked, hey, for my running playlist, I’m trying to get some new songs.

(26:27):
And can you tell me some of the songs? And they need to be pretty fast because you know how blazing fast I am. And he said, sure. So he sent me probably 20 songs and all of a sudden I had his playlist of what he’s listening to and paying attention to. And as I ran, I could listen to them and say, hey, the song, you remember the song, I wonder what the artist meant when they said this? Or, clearly this person has a story behind a song like this. Do you know what it is? I don’t know. It just opened up some conversations that seemed forced otherwise, but became a little more natural when I was in his world.

Dr. Sean McDowell (27:10):
One of the principles of the book Jim and I wrote is we’re not trying to give parents this new parenting strategy they have to do because we’ll all try it for a week and then give up. Rather, how do we more strategically use the opportunities that are already there?

I think it was about three years ago, my son came to me and he wanted to see this movie, Bohemian Rhapsody, which is about the rock band Queen. He was 14. The movie’s PG-13 had some themes in it I didn’t love, but I read about, I was like, okay, here’s the deal. I’ll pay for you a friend to go see the movie. All I want to know afterwards is, we just sit down and tell me what you think about it, and I just want to ask you some questions about what you saw. You go, sure, dad.

(27:48):
So we go see this movie, and then we come back and we just sit down for probably 30 minutes and I’m like, hey, what’d you think about the film? What’d you enjoy? Are there any things that as Christians, we can look at that and say, that’s good. Are there any times where you felt preached at in this movie? Were there any ideas that came through that kind of bumped up against Christian ideas? Do you think Christians should see this film?

We just had a conversation. I didn’t preach with them, but it was an opportunity like yours that was there, that was seen more strategically. So oftentimes I pray like God gives me wisdom to just see a way to connect with my kids and have these meaningful conversations in ways that are already actually present if we just pay attention to them and see them.

Dr. Jeff Myers (28:33):
Yeah. Well, it’s a great book, and I remember reading it back when it first came out, which has been almost three years now.

Dr. Sean McDowell (28:41):
I think that’s right.

Dr. Jeff Myers (28:43):
So the Next Generation Will Know is the book. And so I’m encouraging people to get that, but with the balance of the time we have, Sean, I’d like to hear a little of your Summit story because you came as a student and now we’re back as an instructor. You’re one of the instructors who comes virtually every Summit session that we do, and I’m so thankful that you make time in your schedule to do that. But when you went to Summit, what did that mean to you and what would you say to parents who are trying to think of how they can make this work in their budget for students to attend even this coming summer?

Dr. Sean McDowell (29:19):
So let me answer this in reverse. When parents often ask me, what’s one thing I can do to help my kids own their faith? Jeff, you’ve probably heard me say this in other settings, I’ll say, if there’s one thing you can do, send your kids to Summit. Now, I don’t want to over promise this will fix your kids 100%. It’s not that simple.

But we do have data of how many young people go get encouraged in their faith, hold onto their faith because of, I think the winsomeness of the people who come and speak. You bring in some of the best because the relational dynamic and the topics you cover, it’s the kind of thing, and I sent my daughter through it last summer. You have to do it. It’s a no brainer. It’s a must. So I’ve said that even apart from your show.

(30:04):
I went to Summit in 1994. I didn’t have a clue who it was, didn’t know who Dr. Noble was. My dad’s like, son, I don’t even remember how he described it. He’s like, I think you can play some basketball while you’re there. I was like, okay, going to Colorado, play little hoops, learn worldview. Sounds interesting. I didn’t have a clue what I was getting myself into, and I will tell you this, I remember some of the speakers who were there. I think Charles Axton was there. His son is a friend of mine to this day.

I not only remember your sessions on communication now almost 30 years later, I remember some of the stories that you told, and I’ll tell you two of them from Summit. One was about you said something effective when you want to start a speaking ministry, you just got to speak anywhere, every opportunity, and I don’t remember if it was like a knitting club or the Lions Club, it was some local small club, and you’re like, I put together a talk and I did it.

(30:57):
So when I started speaking, I was like, Jeff said, I’ve got to take everything. So I took everything. One place I think paid me like $15. I was like, I’ve got to do it. Jeff said to do it. And the other one was the story about, I don’t remember the relationship, maybe your younger brother, about how this billboard had a sexual image on it, and he gets this campaign together to have it taken down.

I could tell you more stories, but that was 30 years ago and it had an impact on me to today, Jeff, and growing up as a McDowell, I’ve heard a lot of speakers and been at a lot of events, and you know what? Summit was great then. I think it’s even just exponentially better now.

Dr. Jeff Myers (31:39):
So two weeks this summer to develop an unshakable faith. And like Sean said, we can’t guarantee things, but well, I will guarantee this. Bring a list of questions. We will take them all seriously. You’ll find people you can walk alongside. You can be safe, not safe spaces like on campus where you’re safe from thinking safe spaces, as in you’re safe to think and you’ll be supported and you’ll hear biblical truth presented as Sean mentioned in a win some way. So man, Sean, thanks for the time today. I really appreciate doing this and I’m looking forward to catching up a little more this summer.

Dr. Sean McDowell (32:24):
Man, I feel like we could talk for hours. Thanks for doing this and for having me on. Love you brother, and look forward to seeing you in person.

Dr. Jeff Myers (32:30):
A special thanks to my guest today, Sean McDowell. You can find his books and resources through his website, seanmcdowell.com. That’s Sean spelled S-E-A-N. You can also subscribe to his YouTube channel, Dr. Sean McDowell. Check out his podcast, Think Biblically, and follow him on Twitter at Sean McDowell. He’s everywhere.

Sean is right, as the Scripture says, we love because God first loved us. It’s not a self-serving love, but a love that gives to others and enables us to share truth. So let’s live with that kind of love for others now and always. I’ll see you next week.

Ryan Dobson (33:13):
Hey everyone, thanks for listening to the Dr. Jeff Show. And don’t forget about our discount. If you sign your child up for an in-person conference at summit.org before March 31st, you get $200 off the summer program, and if you use the code Dr. Jeff 22, you get another hundred dollars off the summer program. Go to summit.org and sign up today. God bless.

Dr. Jeff Myers (33:39):
Listeners, I want you to know that our podcast is on Edifi, which is a truly powerful app that brings together thousands of the best Christian podcasts in one place for your listening enjoyment. You can download it at edifi.app. Be sure to share the show if you have enjoyed listening to it and leave a review if you would, on the site where you download the show that helps more people know about the Dr. Jeff Show, and I’ll look forward to seeing you next week.