The Dr. Jeff Show Ep. 35 – Todd Harper

Episode 35: Summary & Transcript

Disclaimer: Please note that this is an automatically generated transcript. Although the transcription is largely accurate, it may be incomplete or inaccurate in some cases due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.

Episode Summary

Dr. Jeff interviews Todd Harper from the organization Generous Giving about biblical stewardship and developing a lifestyle of generosity. Harper shares his personal testimony, shifting from a focus on accumulating wealth to a life of service. They discuss the cultural trend of declining generosity despite increasing wealth, attributing it partly to consumerism.

Harper outlines the profound joy and meaning found in giving, offers practical steps for starting a “journey of generosity,” and presents powerful mindset shifts, such as asking, “How much is enough to keep?” rather than, “How much should I give?” The conversation emphasizes that true generosity encompasses all of life’s resources but that financial giving holds a unique power in a person’s spiritual life.

Episode Transcript

Dr. Jeff Myers (00:00):
Thanks for tuning into the Dr. Jeff Show. This show is available on Apple, Google, Edifi, Spotify, Overdrive, Liftable and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show. This is the show where I interview major thought leaders from many fields of influence to show how worldview changes everything.

Today, I’m welcoming a guest who discusses a recent troubling trend showing that while wealth is increasing, generosity is on the decline. Todd Harper runs generous giving and shows how we can experience the abundant life that God has for us by being generous with everything we have. There’s a lot we can learn from this show. So let’s welcome Todd. Todd Harper, welcome to the Dr. Jeff Show.

Todd Harper (00:51):
Great to be here.

Dr. Jeff Myers (00:53):
What you do at the organization Generous Giving is so important, helping people see biblical stewardship and the significant impact that they can have by being generous with their financial resources. It’s such a huge mission, and I can’t wait to dig in and talk about it a little bit more. It’s hard to imagine a topic that would be more close to our hearts and to our minds than what’s close to our wallets, which is stewardship.

Todd Harper (01:23):
Yes. Jesus said where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. So that scripture really informs the basis of all of our work at Generous Giving.

Dr. Jeff Myers (01:36):
Now, this is not a show where the goal is to have some sneaky way to get people to give to Summit Ministries. The goal of this show is to talk about how we develop a lifestyle of generosity that really brings meaning to life as well as impact to other people. Is that a fair way to put it?

Todd Harper (02:00):
Absolutely. I love your heart in that.

Dr. Jeff Myers (02:05):
Well, before we talk about the financial issues our country’s facing, there’s so many different directions we can go. We’ll just see how the conversation proceeds. But before we do that, I’d love for folks to hear a little bit of your story, how you got into this work, what your testimony is.

Todd Harper (02:26):
Yeah, thanks. Well, I love recalling my testimony because it’s evidence of God’s hand in my life. But as a young man, I was very focused on becoming wealthy. In fact, before I was 18, I had my series seven security license. I had started multiple businesses. I was mowing 80 lawns a week by myself. I’ve never had so much disposable income since I was 17 or 18 years old in high school.

And I chose the college that I chose, partially because I felt like God wanted me to go to this school, but it was also because it was one of three schools in the country that offered an entrepreneurship degree at that time. And so I went from, I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago. I drove a thousand miles to go to school in Waco, Texas at Baylor University because they had an entrepreneurship program.

(03:32):
And I was intent on becoming a millionaire by the time I was 30 and was kind of focused on that. At the same time, I was a Christian and my faith was important to me. So I got involved in a campus ministry. I found a local church. The Sunday school teacher that I ended up in his class was also an economics professor at Baylor, who was a phenomenal professor and had been voted the professor of the year, the previous year in the business school. So he was a great communicator.

And he taught this seminar that he called the victory seminar. And I’ll never forget this, but the essence or premise of his whole teaching was John 8:31, that you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. That might be 32. I can’t remember. 8:31 or 32. But his point, one of his classes, he talked about that principle of if we really understood what God had for us, we would fully embrace it.

(04:47):
And the way he illustrated that point was he said, “If you could write down on a piece of paper your dream for your life, everything you can imagine that you would want. ” And if there were a way to compare your list to God’s list for your life, he said, “You tear up your silly little plan so fast.”

Dr. Jeff Myers (05:10):
Wow.

Todd Harper (05:13):
And so it so happened that I had heard that teaching on a Sunday and the next weekend I was on a retreat with Campus Crusade for Christ. This was the fifth week of my college, my freshman year. And they gave us time to go out in the field and spend time with the Lord. And I’m in the middle of central Texas and I felt like I’d never felt God’s clear communication. It wasn’t an audible voice, but I felt God saying to me, “Do you really believe that I’m who I say I am? Do you really believe that I created you? And if I created you, who do you think knows better what is best for your future than me or you?”

(06:07):
And this whole thing, Jeff, part of why I’m going into this in depth is my thing, what I wanted was to be wealthy. I wanted to be a Christian, but what I really wanted was to be wealthy. And I felt like that day in Central Texas on a Saturday morning, the Lord said, “Who are you going to serve?” And John, Matthew 6:24 says, “You can’t serve both God and money.”

And it was that day that I told the Lord, “I’ll do whatever you want me to do. I’m in. I believe that you created me. You know what’s best for me and my pursuit in life is not going to be focused on what I can accumulate for my own comfort and security, but how can I be used by you to bring you glory?” And that was a long time ago, but that is a seminal point in my life and I hearken back to it often.

Dr. Jeff Myers (07:17):
Todd, how did you go from that moment kind of line out what that actually meant for you? And I’ll tell you why I’m asking, because I think a lot of people are saying, “Well, okay, so if I am financially successful, does that mean that I’m not obeying God?” And then there are other people who are saying, “See, I am godly because none of my ventures have succeeded.” Clear that up for us a little bit, talk about your own path.

Todd Harper (07:50):
Yeah. So the big thing for me was, what am I going to pursue? For me, I stayed on a path of pursuing a business degree. And even when I graduated, I could have gone either way. I don’t view this as there being a sacred, secular split, like any vocation that God calls us to, we can live into God’s best for our lives.

But my motivation prior to that encounter with God was really to pursue wealth as more important than God. That’s the point that I’m making. It’s a prioritization and a focus. I have many friends who love Jesus profoundly and are very financially successful. So it’s really, what’s our focus? Where is our heart, right?

Dr. Jeff Myers (08:49):
Right. Yes. That’s helpful.That really clears it up is what is it you want to have happen? And the pursuit of wealth for its own sake doesn’t seem to provide a lot of meaning to people. And I’m guessing that a lot of the people you’re working with are people who are saying, “I need to know that something I’m doing is meaningful beyond just whether we grew 7% or 17% last year.”

Todd Harper (09:25):
Yeah. I had a very interesting encounter today, actually, Jeff, with a second generation wealthy young man who, I’ve never heard a story like this, but he had access to a lot of capital, divorced parents, kind of playing one parent off against the other. He actually, in high school, had seven exotic cars that he drove one a day, spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on vehicles, 16, 17, 18 years old, party… I mean, kind of had access to everything that the world quote unquote has to offer.

And he was telling me today how absolutely meaningless that was. And I mean, that’s an extreme example, but I think there is this, the allure of the world that the things of this world can satisfy is something I think that we all need to continue to wrestle with and dispel that lie because it is a lie, but we’re bombarded with that messaging day in and day out and in our kind of consumer culture.

Dr. Jeff Myers (10:52):
Yeah. You can’t watch a commercial or see any kind of a television program without picking that up. Can you give us, Todd, before we talk about giving, can you give us, what would be some good biblical reasons for being successful in business or good biblical motivations for being successful in the business world? Because I think a lot of the people who are watching and listening to this are at the start of their career, they kind of recognize that pursuing security through wealth is not a path to meaning, but it doesn’t hurt to not be struggling to pay your bills every month.

Todd Harper (11:36):
Yeah, that’s right. I mean, that’s part of the reality of the world we live in. So this is one of the verses that I really like from scripture is in John 17, where Jesus says, “I’ve brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.” And I think that’s the posture that God wants each of his children in, just like his only son who said, “I’m here to live into the meaning for which I was created.” And there are people who are created to be wealth creators. And the interesting thing about wealth creation is very few people create wealth without it benefiting other people along the way.

(12:34):
Many of my friends who are employers, my prayer partner for the last 15 years supports hundreds of people through his company, through employment, his employees and their families, and that’s a good thing. One of my friends likes to say, “Everybody needs Jesus and a job.” So that’s a great reason for being a wealth creator is if we hold it open-handedly, that can be a blessing to so many people in so many ways, not just what we give away to our church or to nonprofits or to the poor, right?

I mean, that wealth creation is a good thing. God is a creator. And one of my favorite things to do, Jeff, my best day, if you will, at work, is helping an entrepreneur change what they’re solving for, From maximizing their own accumulation of wealth to maximizing kingdom impact. But in most cases, it means staying where they are, just changing the perspective or the end game, right?

(14:09):
And that really changes everything, like how people show up at work. If I’m here for the sake of others, as opposed to, how can I get everything for my own benefit? Which is, I mean, that is kind of the nature of our human nature and the nature of our world and culture, right?

Dr. Jeff Myers (14:31):
Yes. There’s so many thoughts running through my mind right now, Todd, but I was remembering talking to one of my students at Summit Ministries who was going into the field of animal husbandry. And at that time, which was only a couple years ago, that’s still what they called it. That probably is a politically incorrect term now.

It’s probably been changed, but animal husbandry, based on the idea of a husband, what is a husband, and a husband is somebody who matures and develops the things and the people in their realm. In other words, the key stewardship question is, are other people growing in their ability to steward their resources mentally, physically, and so forth, through the influence that you have? Is that the kind of shift that you’re talking about and thinking?

Todd Harper (15:21):
Absolutely. I mean, I think that the word steward or stewardship is a really powerful word. I think in some ways it’s been dissipated through just stewardship campaigns at churches, but stewardship is like this profoundly holistic understanding of using everything that God has entrusted to us for the sake of others, which is the essence of the gospel, right?

I mean, that’s what Jesus did in using who he was, the God of the universe to come and pay the penalty of our sins fully, right? I mean, he stewarded his life fully. How are you and I stewarding our lives for the benefit of others? And part of what has been so interesting for me in this work for the last 25 years is that the people who are doing that are truly the most joyful people you meet, right?

Dr. Jeff Myers (16:31):
Yes, I completely see it. There is so much joy to it, but that doesn’t seem to be translating into a cultural drive. In other words, what you’re seeing now is, wealth is growing, but giving is not growing. It may even be declining in proportion to the overall growth of wealth. If giving brings so much joy and it’s so meaningful to us as human beings, where did we get off track as a culture?

Todd Harper (17:09):
Yeah. What’s the disconnect? I think there are lots of forces competing, messages competing for our attention, right? As you mentioned, advertising, I mean, advertisers are not stupid, right? They don’t spend billions of dollars. It’s not a public service message, right? There’s a return on those dollars that are being invested in advertising, which is beyond what is being invested.

So there’s a tremendous effort to drive discontent with what I have so that I will upgrade or replace or buy new. And I think there’s just more and more ways to get my attention today than there used to be. So in many ways, wealth is growing and yet you mentioned giving’s going down. It’s been pretty static for four or five decades. It’s actually about 50% lower than during the Great Depression.

Dr. Jeff Myers (18:28):
Wow.

Todd Harper (18:30):
As a percentage of our income, it’s about 50% below, and that trend has been steady for about 50 years. So you’re accurate that people, well, here’s what I’d say. People who have experienced the joy of giving and really are generous, almost never go backwards. I like to say I’ve never met a former giver.

Dr. Jeff Myers (19:03):
Right, right. They might change the object of that giving.

Todd Harper (19:12):
Correct.

Dr. Jeff Myers (19:13):
So they’re growing in their giving. It seems to me, and you work with more people who are in this position, but it seems to me that people who give more, do a better job with our overall budget and are actually gaining more. They’re actually becoming more successful the more they give. And I don’t mean that like in a televangelist kind of sense, but are you seeing that? Is that just a random observation or is that actually bearing in reality?

Todd Harper (19:52):
No, I would say that is generally true. It’s not a law, but it is a proverb. Proverbs 11:24 says, “One man gives freely, yet gains even more.” Another withholds unduly yet comes to poverty. Verse 25 says, “A generous man will prosper. He who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.” So that’s that principle. I could explain to you why I think that happens for people, but the reality is, this is just one little funny anecdote, is people don’t give themselves into poverty. People do spend themselves into, maybe not poverty, but financial bondage or financial difficulty.

Dr. Jeff Myers (20:48):
Wow. Wow.

Todd Harper (20:51):
So the practice of giving is a powerful financial discipline, actually, because it means I can get along with less and there’s enough to go around. There’s this idea of contentment and abundance as opposed to scarcity.

Dr. Jeff Myers (21:14):
Yeah. And the discipline aspect of it is, I was thinking of an example of a donor to Summit Ministries who gave a very generous donation to Summit and then asked me, “Is it okay if I send this in the post rather than through overnight mail?” And I said, “Whatever you want to do, whatever works best for you.” He said, “Good, because I can save $8.15.” And the gift was far, far in excess of that. It was just so funny to me that part of his stewardship was, “I don’t want to give $1 more to non-focused causes than I have to.” Yes. And that illustrates the whole principle on which he has become a wealthy individual.

Todd Harper (22:07):
Yes. And that various people get to where they are in different ways. I mean, there might be somebody hearing that story who thinks that’s ridiculous, who cares about the shipping expense.

Dr. Jeff Myers (22:21):
That’s right. Yeah.

Todd Harper (22:25):
But for that person, that was a stewardship decision and he probably has accumulated wealth through living frugally and giving generously.That’s powerful. One of my prayers personally is that I will be frugal towards myself and generous towards others. That’s just the way I want to live. And I’m not saying I do, that’s why I’m praying to be more like that.

But that’s my heart, is to be a channel of God’s blessing, and that’s where the joy comes. I like to say I’ve never met an unhappy, generous person. I mean, there’s just something about that connection between giving our lives away and experiencing joy. I’m not saying there aren’t struggles or pain or suffering for people who are generous at all, but there is this inner quality of joy that comes from loving and caring for other people.

Dr. Jeff Myers (23:41):
There are two directions I want to go in response to that, because I think that’s such a powerful observation. Let me just ask it from the perspective of somebody who’s getting started out on, I think, what you’ve called a journey of generosity. And they might be saying, “Okay, my rent is high, my salary, I’m still entry level, or our company’s not thriving as well as I had hoped.” So how do I get started in that journey? Can you just walk us through some steps that would be helpful?

Todd Harper (24:21):
Yeah. I think it’s a very powerful practice to give on the increase. So most of the people you’re describing in that stage of life, younger, beginning career folks probably get paid every two weeks or twice a month or once a month. So make it a practice to take the percentage that you feel that God is calling you to kind of start your giving journey with and salt it away. Maybe you set up a separate bank account. That’s one of the things that I’ve seen. I mean, it’s such a little simple idea, but when I get paid, automatically I’m transferring the amount that we’re giving, it’s a practice into a different account.

(25:19):
So it’s not, I’m not going to go out to dinner with it or take a vacation or pay my rent, which kind of makes the giving away of those resources more fun because it’s not in competition. That’s earmarked for God’s kingdom expansion that I get to kind of go shopping in the world with him for what those resources can do. And I mean, that simple practice is really a powerful discipline that, then, you can build on over time.

Maybe you get a 3% raise and you say, “Hey, I’m going to use half of that for myself and our increased expenses, and I’m going to use half of that to go into my giving account.” I have a friend who started that in his 30s, he was a 10% giver, and in his 30s decided, “We’re going to try to give 1% more a year.” Wow.

(26:27):
And he’s in his 80s, and he’s done that every year. Wow. But it was a simple thing to start with, right? Like 1%. I don’t even notice that in my paycheck, right? But just those kind of simple steps, what did Eugene Peterson call it, a long obedience in the same direction? Very powerful.

Dr. Jeff Myers (26:54):
Yeah, very powerful. And I can see how much fun that would be then to say, “Wow, this separate account is, it’s this much money. It’s already been set aside for the Lord.” Now we just try to make good decisions about where to give it. But that really leads to my second question. I remember visiting with one of our summit donors who had a high capacity, but when I spoke with him, he was very dejected. And I asked him, “What’s happening?”

And he said, “Well, I can give this much money every year, but I get three times as many requests and they all seem urgent. And so no matter how much I give, I feel like I’m not coming close to meeting the needs.” How do you encourage people to make good decisions about what to give to and how to have that, to maintain that joyful perspective in the face of, “Oh, well, this person’s a giver. We’ll send them another letter, see if they’ll give to us,” kind of thing, and it just all piles up.

Todd Harper (27:57):
Yeah, that is a reality for some people. So your description, I’m certainly empathetic to that person’s circumstance. I try to encourage people to live into the calling that God has put on their lives, to recognize that all requests are not requests for them that they have to respond to, and to really ask the Lord and listen to him, and to be okay with not saying yes to everyone.

I was kind of made aware of this early in my career. One of my close friends went to work for a private foundation that was giving away millions of dollars every year, and he was like, “This is going to be so fun. I’m going to get to give away millions of dollars.” And he did very much enjoy the role, but what he realized was because of the nature of how long they’d been around and how many requests there were, they said no 9 times out of 10.

Dr. Jeff Myers (29:15):
Wow.

Todd Harper (29:16):
And yet they were giving away millions. So it really, it doesn’t matter how much money you have, there’s never enough in that sense to meet all of the needs or opportunities. So it really becomes, what’s God calling me or my family to be a part of and how can we engage that and move the needle and trust that God’s got resources from other people to meet those other needs. But that’s a real issue, Jeff, that you bring up.

Dr. Jeff Myers (29:53):
I know every year, generous giving, you have an event, you bring people together, talk about stewardship. Can you just share with our audience some of the principles that you want to be sure from year to year that your audience at those events will learn?

Todd Harper (30:12):
Yeah. Let me give you one that I think is a particularly powerful idea that may be particularly relevant to this audience. And we started about five years ago, Jeff, I don’t even know if you know this, working with what we call emerging leaders at top tier business law and medical schools.

(30:38):
Because a lot of these people come out of these schools and their earning potential has been dramatically upgraded. And we wanted to intersect them before they started making three times what they were making before they went into school, or maybe 10 times if they’re a medical doctor. And so one of the ideas that we’ve observed really generous people kind of making a decision around is to change the question, to flip the question from how much should I give to how much should I keep? Radically different question, right?

But if we can engage that question authentically before the Lord to ask and answer the question, what’s an appropriate lifestyle as for whatever God’s calling me to do, my vocation, and could I just draw a line? We call it a finish line. What might that impact be to kind of answer that question, how much is enough? And if God prospers us, the increase all goes to the kingdom.

Dr. Jeff Myers (32:04):
Wow.

Todd Harper (32:06):
So I have scores of friends who have made that kind of a decision and are living with an incredible sense of freedom and purpose in stewarding their wealth or their resources, whether it qualifies as wealth or not. My wife and I made this decision about eight, nine years ago, and it has impacted us for the better more than I anticipated. Just that sense of contentment and there doesn’t always have to be more for us to be okay. And when there is more, like we get to allocate more to God’s kingdom, that is just, I mean, it’s just awesome.

Dr. Jeff Myers (33:06):
Yeah. It’s incredible. That’s a great, great feeling. I was just, as you were speaking of that, mulling over some gifts that we’ve been able to give that we feel blessed to be able to give and the incredible joy that has come from those decisions. But I’m also mindful, Todd, of the fact that money is only one resource that God’s given us to steward. In fact, for a lot of people, they have all of the other resources, friendships, talents, ideas, relationships, all of those kinds of things, except money. Talk as we get ready to close, just about stewardship as a mentality of life.

Todd Harper (33:51):
Yeah, absolutely. There are many ways to be generous that are non-financial. My wife and I talk a lot about living with a generous spirit toward one another in our marriage. I mean, that’s a very powerful visceral act to be generous with a word or an act of kindness. But here’s what I would like to say is there is something unique about the power of money or mammon in our lives. Jesus set it apart when he said, “You can’t serve both God and money.” So my observation is that sometimes that’s a smokescreen for people so that they don’t have to be generous with their money.

Dr. Jeff Myers (34:49):
Oh, okay. Right.

Todd Harper (34:51):
They hide behind that. Oh, there’s other ways to be generous. I will tell you this, I have not met somebody who is truly generous with their money, who is not generous with everything else.

Dr. Jeff Myers (35:02):
Right. There you go.

Todd Harper (35:04):
Now, I have met rich people who people think are generous because they can write big checks, but they’re not truly generous relative to what they have. They’re just rich.

Dr. Jeff Myers (35:18):
Yeah.

Todd Harper (35:20):
So I invite the audience to think about that. People who you know who are radically generous with their money are generous. I’ve never met someone who isn’t generous with everything else because there’s something sticky about money for us for some reason. I mean, and I think it’s interesting if 2000 years ago that were true, that Jesus called it out, how much more true is that today in our kind of materialistic driven culture?

Dr. Jeff Myers (35:57):
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And then you don’t have to keep looking at the advertisements thinking, “I want this or I want that.” If only. That’s no longer the focus of your life. I can see how that sets you free.

Todd Harper (36:17):
Yes.That is what Jesus’ invitation to us to live our lives in alignment with his teaching. It’s what he wants for us, right? I mean, he doesn’t need our money. He created the world out of nothing. He wants our hearts so that we can experience freedom, purpose, joy, right? The fruits of the spirit, love, joy, peace. That’s what he wants for us as his children.

Dr. Jeff Myers (36:50):
Yeah. Todd, thank you so much. We’ll put information on how to reach out to you, the website, more information about generous giving in the show notes, and we’ll also put it at the end, the outro to the show. But I just want to say thank you for coming on the show today and sharing your heart about generosity. This is really cool.

A special thank you to my guest today, Todd Harper from Generous Giving, for showing us how to live generously with our finances, but also with everything else. And it’s incredible that the Apostle Paul wrote about the joy that came to the church because of the abundant giving that they did to others, even when they didn’t have a lot to give. That’s the heart for giving. God loves a cheerful giver. So may our abundance to others flow from God’s abundance to us and in everything else we do, I’ll look forward to seeing you next week.

(37:49):
Hey, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Dr. Jeff Show. It’s a podcast from Summit Ministries, summit.org. Summit is a nonprofit ministry that exists to equip and support the rising generation to embrace God’s truth and champion a biblical worldview.

For nearly 60 years, Summit Ministries has been training students and those who work with students to develop, deepen, and defend a biblical worldview through life-changing conferences, thoughtful church, homeschool and Christian school, curriculum books, free online resources and more. If you want to live out a biblical worldview in today’s world and you desire to instill a lifelong faith in the rising generation, visit summit.org/thedrjeffshow for more information.

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(38:53):
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